Solar Panel Investment Traps Hidden Problems ?

vindictive666 (John) · #1 29-11-2010, 08:26 AM

hi all

just a question really

i am thinking about having solar panels fitted to my house

are there any hidden problems i should be aware of (i am with synergy at the mo)

hopefully will be feeding back to the grid

they use Suntech Systems

not really sure myself at what i am asking here though

i think mainly about on going costs ? ect

sorry i should allso have said after installation, i have got a quote and everything

ready to sign the contract

regards john

AdrianF (Adrian) · #2 29-11-2010, 08:57 AM

When I enquired about a solar installation I was given the folowing info
1. If the roof is over a certain pitch an extra $440 is required

2. If the roof is over a certain pitch extra mounting framework is required, upto $1000 depending on pitch.

I will agree that this was for a "free" installation, where the company would give a free setup and all revenue from feeding the surplus power back to the grid would be paid to the company. Off the top of my head I cant remember the companies name I will see if I still have the paperwork at home.

Adrian

PCH (Paul) · #3 29-11-2010, 10:28 AM

John,

a question in my mind might be the possibility that the buy back rate (by synergy), which I think is currently 47c per unit for the ten years after you purchase, might be reduced significantly as I think it has in NSW - to something like 7c. This would impact severely on the time it will take for the system to pay for itself. But you would still be embracing all the 'green' advantages if that's what appeals to you.

How many panels were you thinking of having?

vindictive666 (John) · #4 29-11-2010, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PCH

John,

a question in my mind might be the possibility that the buy back rate (by synergy), which I think is currently 47c per unit for the ten years after you purchase, might be reduced significantly as I think it has in NSW - to something like 7c. This would impact severely on the time it will take for the system to pay for itself. But you would still be embracing all the 'green' advantages if that's what appeals to you.

How many panels were you thinking of having?

8 panels upgradeable 2 10 panels

GrampianStars (Rob) · #5 29-11-2010, 10:54 AM

Suntech panels are OK
http://www.energymatters.com.au/
forget the hype about buyback of energy it's a marketing gimmick
unless you are putting in a super 15Kw+ system there is no buy back

The most important solar idea is to reduce your carbon footprint!
which will take about an average 3 years for the system installed.
after that you are generating carbon free energy from the system.

The other main consideration is reduced energy costs
i.e. 2Kw system will reduce your $ power bill average about 25% - 30%
so to recover installed system costs add up the savings $ per year
say $300 per year to reach the installed price say 10 years $3K at todays prices
congrats

GTB_an_Owl (Geoff) · #6 29-11-2010, 11:17 AM

have a guess what !

i have been told - that when you get a blackout in your area - the solar panels go offline and can't put any power back into the grid

geoff

Louwai (Bryan) · #7 29-11-2010, 02:29 PM

I've been told by electrical friends that anything under a 3kw system is not worth it.

They have also told me that an average domestic installation can not exceed 10kw per phase.
So most residence that are on a single phase power supply can only have a max of 10kw Solar System.

Anyone with a 3 phase power supply can have up to 30kw Solar System.

As others have noted, make sure that what you get is upgradable. I've been told that most of the small kw cheap systems are at capacity. Any upgrade requires a complete new system.

multiweb (Marc) · #8 29-11-2010, 02:38 PM

Reading with interest. I can't believe all the pitfalls and gotchas with this solar panel business. Sounded a lot more straight forward in the ads.

mswhin63 (Malcolm) · #9 29-11-2010, 03:22 PM

Be careful of ads with specials that only last a few days as well. I feel these are traps. If you looking for specials then consider investigating the offer then wait for the next special to arrive.

adman (Adam) · #10 29-11-2010, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrampianStars

forget the hype about buyback of energy it's a marketing gimmick
unless you are putting in a super 15Kw+ system there is no buy back

it depends on what state you are in.

In NSW the feed-in tariff is calculated on the gross amount of power that your panels produce - ie: if you produce 10 kW h in a normal day - you get paid the 47c for each one - but in Queensland they operate on a net feed-in tariff. So if you produce 10 kW h in a day, but then use 5 for your own needs, you only get paid for 5 - makes a big difference.

Ric · #11 29-11-2010, 04:20 PM

I'm the same as Marc and reading this with interest.

I was aware of extra charges if the pitch of your roof isn't right.

Thanks for the info on single phase power Bryan I wasn't aware of that or the upgrade ability of some systems.

cheers

bojan · #12 29-11-2010, 04:30 PM

Also, keep in mind that solar panels should also have tracking... just like equatorial telescope!
But they don't.
So the generated peak power will be ONLY at noon, twice a year (during a month or two), and for couple of hours per day. The rest of the time the system works with reduced power ( cos(phi) !!) or none (when cloudy and during night hours).

If you ask me, the whole solar power generator issue is just a political statement, no more... but very expensive one. Personally, I can't afford it.

Much better (cheaper) idea is to pre-heat the water with blackened hose thrown on the roof, before it goes into your Rheem boiler.

Miaplacidus (Brian) · #13 29-11-2010, 05:20 PM

Yeah, the Australian love affair with solar... The economics of it often don't add up (although they stand a better chance in Geraldton).

They are even sprouting on the roofs here in Hobart, generating just enough power to light the indicator light on the "on" switch...

I think I'll wait for the price on BluGens to come down...

Barrykgerdes · #14 29-11-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bojan

Also, keep in mind that solar panels should also have tracking... just like equatorial telescope!
But they don't.
So the generated peak power will be ONLY at noon, twice a year (during a month or two), and for couple of hours per day. The rest of the time the system works with reduced power ( cos(phi) !!) or none (when cloudy and during night hours).

If you ask me, the whole solar power generator issue is just a political declaration, no more... but very expensive one. Personally, I can't afford it.

Much better (cheaper) idea is to pre-heat the water with blackened hose thrown on the roof, before it goes into your Rheem boiler.

Interesting thing I noticed about the solar panel we have at Wiruna. On a dull overcast day it was puting 6.5 Amps into the battery and in full sun it was peaking at 11.0 Amps. This rather surprised me.

Barry

bojan · #15 29-11-2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes

Interesting thing I noticed about the solar panel we have at Wiruna. On a dull overcast day it was puting 6.5 Amps into the battery and in full sun it was peaking at 11.0 Amps. This rather surprised me.

Barry

Probably because there was enough IR radiation ?
But, it was still operating at 1/4 of nominal power .

AdrianF (Adrian) · #16 29-11-2010, 06:34 PM

The company that was giving away free solar panels here in Roma is called NuPower. They are currently installing panels in town. One person I know of as had to pay $2100 for the free installation due to the problems of mounting the hardware on the roof of the house, the roof was to steep to take the standard install.

Adrian

Barrykgerdes · #17 29-11-2010, 06:44 PM

I have signed a contract to install 2KW of solar power from a local supplier so he won't be much use in WA. I have been interested In solar power for some time but wanted to see a system working. The solar power at Wiruna is very effective so I know what can be done.

My neighbours are using this supplier and are satisfied with the pricing, workmanship and results The cost is $4600 and I am registered for the 60c/KWh as I beat the deadline. I suppose I am lucky that I have the money available to indulge in this exersize and the projected income from power will be about equal to my usage costs. If it works for 4 years it will have paid for itself. A 25% return for a $4600 investment. Better than having the money sit in a fixed deposit at 6%.

It is a slight inconvenience that it won't work with a power outage but I still have my standby generator that can power everything (except the A/C).

I am not doing it to be a Greenie. I would just like to test the technology. I will try to burn up other stuff to make sure that I put enough CO2 into the air to offset the savings.

Barry

pmrid (Peter) · #18 29-11-2010, 06:51 PM

Can anyone suggest a reason why you can't connect a wind turbine-based system to the grid - I have 3 KW of solar and would like to augment it with wind - it blows both night and day here - makes astronomy difficult sometimes but ..
Peter

gregbradley · #19 29-11-2010, 06:59 PM

I evaluated solar panels myself extensively and was interested in installing them. I am in NSW where the buyback rate was 60 cents until 2012. The current cost is 19 cents per kw.

The cost of the system for a 6kw system was around $18,000. In NSW you have to finance that yourself so add in the interest bill which is not factored in these calculations about payback periods.

As was predictable the NSW Govt has cancelled the 60 cent rebate for new installations (existing or agreed to be installed systems at end of Oct are still honoured). The new rebate is way lower - I forget the amount but soemthing like 30 cents but it is only a bit above the current cost.

So it seemed to me that the payback period for the system was closer to 5 years plus not 3 and that was at the unsustainable 60 cent buyback rate. Now with the lower buyback rate it probably has an 8 to 10 year or longer payback period. So basically I imagine solar power companies are facing closing down overnight as a result of the NSW decision as they no longer offer a viable economic incentive to investing in solar power which, in principle, I agree with is a good thing.

You are assuming here of course the panels last a long time otherwise its 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. The panels performance degrades over time. How fast depends on type and manufacturer.

Secondly, the system can only be wired as going into the grid not as a standalone system that provides power to your home (battery technology is not viable at this time). Thirdly, the inverter which converts the DC power from the panel to 240V AC is a critical component (my local electrician commented that there were a lot causing problems to household power). Some inverters are not upgradeable and only have one input. Some have more than one allowing more panels to be added later.

4thly, the choice of panel and type of silicone system makes a huge difference. One type does not perform as well when it is hot, does not last as long and puts out not really enough power. A lot of these panels are Chinese. So how much confidence you have in statements these things will last a long time is up to your own observation of the performance of any Chinese made product. Sanyo has a nice panel but of course it is more expensive. I heard good things about the Australian made panels.

But in NSW's case the likelyhood is electricity prices are going to rise and rise making it more viable over time. Not sure what the scene is with other states.

Another factor is the ugly factor and the direction your roof faces. If you do not have a north facing roof then it may not be for you as alreayd mentioned these panels are sensitive to positioning to catch the rays.

Also I have seen some incredibly ugly installations where small houses have basically a solar panel roof that only a mother could love.

Having said all the above there is something appealling about being that bit more selfsufficient and generating power on your roof without it going to waste.

Another interesting tidbit. Off peak electrical water heaters are very cheap to run. Bills for that are often only about $39-50 per quarter so forget the economics of solar hot water heaters. Again, you'd do it for the self sufficiency/greener appeal rather than for money. The deal is they also demand a new hot water tank as part of the rebate deal which seems odd if you are presenting it as a green alternative.

So as it stands in NSW I would conclude it is more of an appeal to a green contribution rather than an economically driven proposal given they cancelled the 60 buyback rate which is basically needed to make economic sense. It also made more sense for those cashed up to pay for it without finance as the finance cost made it far less appealling. Also if it were able to be used to run your own home instead of going into the grid it would also be more appealling in my opinion. But then that requires a battery system and they are large, expensive, not long lasting and give of excess hydrogen gas which has to be vented to be safe.

Greg.

Merlin66 (Ken) · #20 29-11-2010, 08:43 PM

A couple of comments:
I installed solar water heating panels to reduce my energy bills....
I found they failed in winter...each year for the three years I used them!
When it got down to -4 the connectors popped....
My daughter looked at the total carbon footprint of digging the ore converting it to silicon and producing the panels v's the life and energy production....she concluded they were worse than Yallourn power station and should be banned from sale!!
Over here in the UK the wind farms are everywhere...but I can't find out the "total carbon footprint" or the maintenance costs v's life span.
I think the only guys making money from them is the Germany contractors....