expanding universe >>>>>

beren · #1 05-03-2005, 06:00 PM

On page 93 of the March/April edition of Sky and Space is a thought provoking question and answer in the Astro-answer section. *How can the universe expand into nothing*is the question and one that usally pops up when friends and family ask how the astro stuff is going .Without understanding the theory i usally give the inflating ballon example but its a intriging subject and just wondering what other people think and whats your take on it

Starkler (Geoff) · #2 05-03-2005, 06:09 PM

I havent given this topic much thought but why cannot space be infinite and just matter from the original big bang expanding into empty space like an inflating baloon ?

As for the universe expanding into nothing it comes down to he definition of the word 'universe'. Is it all of everything, or all of space that encompasses matter ?

rumples riot · #3 05-03-2005, 06:48 PM

Two thoughts go through my mind.

One, maybe the universe has always been infinite and the bigbang was an explosion that happened within the Universe. That way the universe itself is not expanding its the material within it that is expanding.

Two, maybe the universe is contained within another space that contains infinite universes. If this is the case it would support some aspects of string theory. If matter in this universe vibrates at a certain frequency and you changed that frequency then it would be possible to slip into another dimension or universe. Some string theorists postulate this notion.

Personally, I think this question is too big for us mere mortals. I think our version of physics is too simplistic to understand this whole issue. If string theory does pan out to accomodate a unified theory then it will no doubt lead to our colonisation of space. However, for now I am happy to know that the universe is expanding and not contracting. Maybe the bigbang did not happen at all. Maybe the matter in our universe was the ejection of matter from a black hole from another universe, and it is expanding as a result of that ejection.

Man I don't know and now my head hurts.

janoskiss (Steve H) · #4 05-03-2005, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Starkler
I havent given this topic much thought but why cannot space be infinite and just matter from the original big bang expanding into empty space like an inflating baloon ?

The baloon analogy does not work like that. Ignore the fact that we appear to live in three spatial dimensions and pretend we live in just one! Then on the surface of the baloon imagine that two independent coordinates (say latitude and longitude) represent the space and time coordinates in our one dimensional universe. The expansion of the baloon represents an expansion of spacetime (and everything in it, which by the way defines it, ... General Relativity!

). In the beginning the baloon is a point, a signularity; time, space, everything are one. Then the Big Bang and the following inflation of the singularity into the "baloon" brings the myriad of seemingly distinct things you see before you and some others that you don't.

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #5 05-03-2005, 10:51 PM

I personally agree with infinite space. What happens at the edge of the universe? A black wall? No way.

If the Universe did have an edge what is beyond the edge (and that is a common question put to scientists but they cannot say).

In my view, there cannot be nothing. The universe, if it has an edge, has to expand into something and that something is more space (remember, that's just my view of it).

I cannot prove anything, no-one can, but it seems pretty obvious that something cannot invade an area without an area being there to invade.

This is one of those debates that has lots of scientists saying dozens of theories and not one of them can prove anything, yet they stress over it.

I'm quite happy to know that space is out there, and we can look at it with a few bits of metal, plastic and glass from our humble little viewing spot here in our piece of the Universe. If it runs out, so be it. If it goes on forever, all the better.

Unlike Paul's problem, I DON'T want my head to hurt. I'll just accept space as space, and you can bet your bottom dollar that some ding-a-ling's going to come along and bring up the tired old comparison about a Flat Earth Theory.

janoskiss (Steve H) · #6 05-03-2005, 11:28 PM

Ken,
The points you raise are very much like those that would have been discussed hundreds of years ago on iceonearth forums, by people to whom it would have been "obvious" that the Earth (the ground) is flat.

If the flat Earth is not infinite then it must have an edge and then there must be something beyond that edge, even if it's not solid ground. Hence it must be infinite after all. But now we know the Earth's surface is finite AND it does not have an "edge"... And level ground is flat, even though it's curved. What bizarre nonsense!

Same sort of thing with the rest of the world. It may be infinite but need not be. And if it's finite, there is no issue with things beyond the edge because, somewhat like the finite ground under our feet, a finite universe does not need any external boundaries.

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #7 05-03-2005, 11:44 PM

That's what I said,

"I think it goes on forever!"(infinite space).

I am a very curious person, that's why I am staring into space. I would love to know the answer, but I am not going waste my time debating something none of us can answer and I am certainly not going to burst a foofle valve worrying about it.

Space is space and I am going to enjoy looking at it, not debating about it.

Like my signature says "Look up and Smile" not "Look up and burst a brain cell"

janoskiss (Steve H) · #8 06-03-2005, 12:05 AM

One of us will just have to bite the bullet and do the experiment!

Only real proof of any theory is expérience!

RAJAH235 · #9 06-03-2005, 01:03 AM

Janos, How can *WE* exist/live as 3 dimensional beings in a 1 dimensional Universe to start with??????????? Thoughties???

They/we, will never ever know, or be able to get to where ever the *edge/end* is to find/fall off anyway, so why not debate something that is more productive and understandable? Gees, Why worry about it? My first missus freaked out when you mentioned anything about infinity AND beyond???? WHAT is beyond infinity??? Give it a rest and enjoy our brilliant night skies while we have the opportunity to do so! Lifes too short! Let the Profs. hurt their brains. Can't even get to our nearest b***** star, never mind the ,,/m$%^^4u&@*&8nv. //mkih YAHHHHHH!!! L.
ps. I've worn out my fingers.

Coffee anyone ?

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #10 06-03-2005, 01:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by janoskiss
Ignore the fact that we appear to live in three spatial dimensions and pretend we live in just one!

The Fact??? 3 dimensions???

Pretend??? I do live in one!

Quote:

Originally posted by janoskiss
In the beginning the baloon is a point, a signularity; time, space, everything are one. Then the Big Bang and the following inflation of the singularity into the "baloon" brings the myriad of seemingly distinct things you see before you and some others that you don't.

The Big Bang created everything???? inside nothing?????
Where did the Big Bang happen if there was nothing. That means there was nowhere for it to happen. It had to happen somewhere!

Look up and Smile, Look up and Smile, I must Look up and Smile.

Now I'm going Goo-Gaa, must be all those dimensions.

janoskiss (Steve H) · #11 06-03-2005, 01:28 AM

Beren, Have you read enough about "what other people think" yet?

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #12 06-03-2005, 01:36 AM

Don't blame Beren, he lives in this 1 dimension with us.

It is a thread about what people <b>think</b>, not unfounded so-called facts.

Geez, MiG would love this one.

RAJAH235 · #13 06-03-2005, 01:41 AM

Let's all get BEREN! Where is HE? L.

ps. Thoroughly enjoyable. Thanks guys.

janoskiss (Steve H) · #14 06-03-2005, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ballaratdragons
Don't blame Beren, he lives in this 1 dimension with us.

That's why I can't put anything past you, Ken! hehehe

Quote:

It is a thread about what people <b>think</b>, not unfounded so-called facts.

What if other people like to think about such "unfounded so-called facts"?

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #15 06-03-2005, 01:59 AM

rumples riot · #16 06-03-2005, 02:02 AM

Interesting points guys, personally I don't think any of us is anywhere near qualified to answer this problem. Hey even the so called experts can't really agree. This is where I can't see one opinion being more right than another.

As Blackstone CJ once said "it is through powerful argument that great truths are established". Maybe there is no answer to this problem. If we apply 3 dimensional physics to the problem I would have to say that the universe is expanding into something. Because is has no logic to say that the universe is expanding, but not into anything. It is just expanding. 3D physics does not accept that notion.

Anyway all interesting arguments.

RAJAH235 · #17 06-03-2005, 02:09 AM

Think I'll hang myself! Anyone got any STRING?? L.

janoskiss (Steve H) · #18 06-03-2005, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RAJAH235
Think I'll hang myself! Anyone got any STRING?? L.

Uhmm. Would you prefer a nostalgic 26+1 dimensional one or a modern 11-dimensional go-getter? hehe

mickoking · #19 14-01-2006, 10:52 PM

The universe is exanding into 'nothing' because space was created with the universe. The big bang did not happen in some pre existing void ie the universe was not created in a particular place at a particular time. And also time was created with matter and space at the big bang.

I also believe there are infinite universes

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #20 14-01-2006, 11:00 PM

LOL! Micko, It might help to start your post with the prefix 'I believe'.