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Old 02-12-2009, 12:41 AM
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erick (Eric)
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Oh Dear! Refractor problems

I don't know much about refractors, so maybe I should have kept my hands in my pockets

But I bought this nice short tube 102mm refractor and it looked pretty good when I had a quick look.

But I thought, that objective lens has a few too many spots for my liking - I think I'll give it a clean.

I removed the objective from its support - a bit of screwing and pushing and pulling.

Then gave it a wash.

Discovered what an "air spaced doublet" means! OK, spend quite a while with the bulb blower and sliding thin paper in the air gap to remove the water Ended up with some visible water marks but thought I'll come back to those in future. The surface spots had all come nicely off. So I rebuilt the front end.

This evening I fitted a new dovetail mount to the rings so it sits beautifully on my EQ5. Point it at Canopus and.........Yuck! the view was horrible.

After a fair amount of fiddling around, I figure that the objective lens is now not properly aligned with the optical axis. One give away was that the adjustments on the GSO-type finderscope were hard over to not quite align with the image in the eyepiece. But I had pulled the finderscope off its mount (playing with O-rings) so I didn't twig to that early - I thought I had just stuffed up remounting it - but on close inspection it was mounted just fine.

I think the other giveaway is the view. I've attached an out-of-focus webcam shot - this does not look right! In fact it looks very wrong! I took a video as I wound the focusser through (sort of ) the focus point. See here:-

[EDIT - removed - too embarrassing!]

I think focus point is approximately 27 or 28 sec in. But, at that point, the star is sort of small, but not pinpoint, and there is a glare of light around it, not symmetric.

I'd like to confirm that is the problem before I pull the objective back out of the cell and have a good look. When I dismantled first time, I did not observe any shimming of the lens. I presumed it just mounted flat in the cell.

I must also try to remove the residual water stains in the air gap. But there are three spacers that look like they are stuck to each lens and I don't think I should but pushing any alcohol through the gap in case it loosens the adhesive? Might just have to push distilled water through and leave on edge to air dry?

Another thought? In trying to remove the water in the air gap, have I maybe changed the spacing on one side, between the two lenses? But they should have pulled back together again when I wound down the locking ring?

A good learning exercise for me. Thanks a lot!

Grateful for any help. Especially grateful if there is a Melbourne IISer who just loves pulling refractors apart and fixing them! Feel free to get in touch.
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Last edited by erick; 04-12-2009 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 02-12-2009, 01:58 AM
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Exfso (Peter)
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At a very rough guess, I would say at the very least the collimation is totally out of wack. Do you have push pull screws that hold the objective assembly in place. I suppose I should ask what brand it is too.
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:05 AM
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Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)
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Erik!!!
Ooo err...
Take it to Bintel on Burke Road in Glen Iris (Just off the Monash F'way).
I don't know enough about optical abberitions to speculate as I've never seen one like this.
Be interesting to find out the problem as my 102 (supposedly cleaned & repaired by an independent Melbourne dealer) was about 45 seconds out on one side and the views were no where near that bad.
G'luck
Pete
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:56 AM
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I think you might be out of luck as I went through a similar thing with my orion ED102. I has set mine up of some observing and went inside to wait for it to get dark. A storm rolled in and and and rained on the scope. I ended up with water in the air space as well.

I took it to bintel in Syd and they cleaned it an dried it for me but couldnt clean the inside due to not being able collimate should the lenses be separated. Apparently my scope would have to be shipped back to the US for colimation. There are a few people that can do it in Oz but I was advised if I wanted it done properly to send it to the US. Luckly though I dont have any water marks on the Lens.
Make sure you dry in completely as you can get problems with mould if you dont.

Put in the oven at 50c for a few hours to dry it out properly.
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:03 AM
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multiweb (Marc)
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Did you rotate the lens on its axis in relation to the other lens in anyway?
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
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Did you rotate the lens on its axis in relation to the other lens in anyway?
Yep Marc, I'm sure I did. I was thinking about that this morning as I was driving. Perhaps there are some alignment marks on cell and lens?

The lens came out quite easily, but as I recall now, there were some particles of a seal stuck to one side of the front. I left them there. This might give me a guide to re-inserting it where it was previously.

It's a cheap Synta, moderately old, bought second-hand (Sorry Ian - I didn't mean to stuff it!).

OK, I'll play some more, then see my helpful friends at Bintel. (Unless they see me coming first and hide!)
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by erick View Post
Yep Marc, I'm sure I did. I was thinking about that this morning as I was driving. Perhaps there are some alignment marks on cell and lens?

The lens came out quite easily, but as I recall now, there were some particles of a seal stuck to one side of the front. I left them there. This might give me a guide to re-inserting it where it was previously.

It's a cheap Synta, moderately old, bought second-hand (Sorry Ian - I didn't mean to stuff it!).

OK, I'll play some more, then see my helpful friends at Bintel. (Unless they see me coming first and hide!)
Ouch... that's bad, but nothing you can't fix. Check if there are any marks anywhere on the periphery, usually thick marker marks. If not do a star test and keep rotating until you hit the sweet spot. Tedious but feasible. If you have an artificial star it's even better. No big deal. You'll get there. Just remember for next time.

PS: there might still be some marks on the lens glass where the spacers were to hold the lens separate. With a bit of luck you didn't clean that part and that might be easy to match.
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Exfso View Post
At a very rough guess, I would say at the very least the collimation is totally out of wack. Do you have push pull screws that hold the objective assembly in place. I suppose I should ask what brand it is too.
El-cheapo Synta, Peter. I'm fairly sure there are no push-pull screws. Solid metal lens cell, objective drops in and a ring screws in behind it - easy as - or so I thought.

But I'll have a closer look.

After the event, I'm now doing some reading about collimating refractors
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Old 02-12-2009, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by multiweb View Post
Ouch... that's bad, but nothing you can't fix. Check if there are any marks anywhere on the periphery, usually thick marker marks. If not do a star test and keep rotating until you hit the sweet spot. Tedious but feasible. If you have an artificial star it's even better. No big deal. You'll get there. Just remember for next time.

PS: there might still be some marks on the lens glass where the spacers were to hold the lens separate. With a bit of luck you didn't clean that part and that might be easy to match.
I suspect the lens isn't seated properly.

By the way, the two lenses didn't come apart - the three spacers are in place and seemed solidly atttached as I gently probed in the air gap with a piece of paper to suck up the water.
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:28 AM
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Bintel would be able to fix it - they once offered a service where they re-spaced synta lenses to adjust the color correction. Maybe they'd even let you watch the process so you could learn about it?
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:46 AM
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Bintel would be able to fix it - they once offered a service where they re-spaced synta lenses to adjust the color correction. Maybe they'd even let you watch the process so you could learn about it?
Now that is tempting! Thanks Tony.
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Old 02-12-2009, 12:31 PM
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I shoulda' mentioned - don't fret too much! If it went together once it will do so again (providing you haven't actually changed the shape of the lens or spacers). Even then its only a matter of getting it right (T&E).
Most glass and its coatings are pretty robust. It takes a lot to scratch them or damage them to the point they are non-viable.
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Old 02-12-2009, 01:36 PM
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BTW, it looked to only be coated on the front surface. Remaining three surfaces, rear and air-spaced, seem to be uncoated.
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Old 02-12-2009, 01:40 PM
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asimov (John)
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I'd doubt weather its a objective rotational problem, theres nothing else in the chain that the objective needs to be matched to. Try rotating an EP, you won't see anything change, UNLESS it's not seated correctly & therefor off axis. I reckon it needs to be reseated in its original position & thats it.
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:55 PM
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Looked at the Youtube video.

You have probably got 20 + waves of Spherical Aberration there as well as some axial misalignment. Unless they've accidentally put one of your optical elements around the wrong way, this thing is going to have to go back to the factory.

I think the thicker element should be the front one. Try reversing the rear element ?
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:56 PM
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erick (Eric)
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I'm starting to think there is a seal or o-ring in front of the lens that I didn't notice and I have put it back in rotated from the way it came out and the bits of seal that came off on the lens are making it sit proud on one side.

Still, I'll check it out tonight. Thanks everyone.

(Had none of these problems with my Galileoscope and I've pulled the objective lens out and put it back a few times )
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Old 02-12-2009, 02:59 PM
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erick (Eric)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satchmo View Post
...You have probably got 20 + waves of Spherical Aberration there as well as some axial misalignment....
So it is looking a little less than optimal, Mark!

The two parts of the doublet have remained well connected so I haven't got one around the wrong way.

I'm pretty sure I didn't accidentally put it back in upside down, but I'd better check everything.
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Old 02-12-2009, 04:43 PM
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Yes if it was working before then having put the whole lens back reversed is the only explanation.
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Old 02-12-2009, 10:27 PM
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erick (Eric)
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Full marks to Mark.


Sorry everyone, I had put it back reversed!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Fixed up and it's looking much better now. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDJwR2J8vcI

Edit - plus Moon. That's good enough for me.
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Last edited by erick; 03-12-2009 at 01:16 AM.
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Old 03-12-2009, 04:37 PM
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Sweet, good to hear. Theres nothing quite like buggering up something youve just bought. I've done that a few times.

Sandy
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