Classifieds : A feedback system ?

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

i am a member of another forum, that also has a classifieds section in it, they have a feedback system, where poeple can leave comments on the person as a buyer/seller

In general, we amateur astronomers are a pretty tight knit bunch, and are unlikely to take advantage of each other, although after a recent sale i had on IIS classifieds went wrong, maybe its an idea to think about somethink like this? Lets face it, there is nothing much that Mike, or the admin staff can do about these things, so isnt even a little public protection a prudent idea?

[allan gould]

I don't see how that suggestion would harm, but probably a moderator would have to screen PMs first to make sure there was a legitimate basis for negative feedback.

[Octane (Humayun)]

Duncan,

Spill all. What happened?

Regards,
Humayun

[Bassnut (Fred)]

mmm, perhaps a simple 5 point satisfaction register?, with right of reply?.

[jjjnettie (Jeanette)]

Originally Posted by Octane

Duncan,

Spill all. What happened?

Regards,
Humayun

gossip gossip gossip

I've been fortunate. All my purchases through this forum have been pleasant experiences. But I can see a need for some form of ratings system.

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by Octane

Duncan,

Spill all. What happened?

Regards,
Humayun

absolutely nothing happened mate, thats what led me to suggest this!

[matt]

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

gossip gossip gossip

I've been fortunate. All my purchases through this forum have been pleasant experiences. But I can see a need for some form of ratings system.

And a pleasure doing business with ya

[allan gould]

Originally Posted by Bassnut

mmm, perhaps a simple 5 point satisfaction register?, with right of reply?.

Agree with the above comment. It would be good to rate the overall transaction, description of goods re the ACTUAL CONDITION, payment procedure, delivery time and packaging and would you deal with them again.
Just my 2 cents worth

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by allan gould

Agree with the above comment. It would be good to rate the overall transaction, description of goods re the ACTUAL CONDITION, payment procedure, delivery time and packaging and would you deal with them again.
Just my 2 cents worth

thats a good idea, then that way a deal could just be rated, if no comments where left.

Do any of the admin staff have an opinion on this?

[erick (Eric)]

My humble view - Sadly, I see it as another opportunity for eruptions of discontent and argument - which would then have to be removed or refereed by the mods. There is always the risk that someone with malicious intent or what they perceive to be an unresolved grievance might log poor feedback, sadly even untruthful feedback?

I've had many transactions now on the site, buying and selling. Maybe I've been lucky, but I'd rate all my experiences as 4-5 stars and I hope the people I have done business with have felt the same - but I cannot be sure of other's feelings. But I've been cautious when it particularly mattered (higher $s usually) - it was my job to protect my interests, not someone else's.

I've had people PM me re issues, sellers and with their thoughts on goods in which I expressed an interest in the thread - PMs whose advice I have accepted or not, but all of which I have appreciated - I suggest that we leave it that way - informal private advice being shared around.

Sorry for being the wet blanket. Perhaps I'm too pessimistic and we need to give it a go at least?

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by erick

My humble view - Sadly, I see it as another opportunity for eruptions of discontent and argument - which would then have to be removed or refereed by the mods. There is always the risk that someone with malicious intent or what they perceive to be an unresolved grievance might log poor feedback, sadly even untruthful feedback?

I've had many transactions now on the site, buying and selling. Maybe I've been lucky, but I'd rate all my experiences as 4-5 stars and I hope the people I have done business with have felt the same - but I cannot be sure of other's feelings. But I've been cautious when it particularly mattered (higher $s usually) - it was my job to protect my interests, not someone else's.

I've had people PM me re issues, sellers and with their thoughts on goods in which I expressed an interest in the thread - PMs whose advice I have accepted or not, but all of which I have appreciated - I suggest that we leave it that way - informal private advice being shared around.

Sorry for being the wet blanket. Perhaps I'm too pessimistic and we need to give it a go at least?

Not at all Eric, you're a valued member here, and thanks for your input

i should imagine that anything could be edited by mods, etc. and i should also imagine very strict rules regarding what could or couldnt be commented on, i know what you mean though, its possibly open to abuse, although we are lucky, that amateur astronomers tend to respect each other highly enough to not let this happen

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

Perhaps just a positive feedback sub-forum (as on some other sites). Buying used equipment can be a minefield of subjectivity, particularly for older or complex gear. One person's beloved, some-signs-of-use, 1990's Televue is anothers' worn-out rubbish, a perfectly functioning EQ6, becomes an incomprehensible pile of gears.
Also, perhaps stearing a buyer or seller toward feedback on ebay or any other site on which they deal would be a good way to establish bone-fides.
New vendors/buyers here may have "form" on another forum.
By leaving only positive feedback you avoid the pitfalls that Erick so ably outlined (who buy the way, sent me a wonderful piece of gear! Ta again).
It also absolves the moderators of any responisiblity in what is, after all, a private transaction, and avoids any accusations of bias.
Just my $.02
Peter

[theodog (Jeff)]

I have purchased several items through the IIS classifieds.
I tend to look at the number of posts and length of membership of the seller as a judge of legitimacy. If a recent member with few posts then a more personal contact may be req'd. As always -buyer beware.
I have often recieved follow up as to the safe arrival and condition of goods. My experiences have been positive, so feel that a rating system would be another burden for the Mod's. 2c.

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by Waxing_Gibbous

Perhaps just a positive feedback sub-forum (as on some other sites). Buying used equipment can be a minefield of subjectivity, particularly for older or complex gear. One person's beloved, some-signs-of-use, 1990's Televue is anothers' worn-out rubbish, a perfectly functioning EQ6, becomes an incomprehensible pile of gears.
Also, perhaps stearing a buyer or seller toward feedback on ebay or any other site on which they deal would be a good way to establish bone-fides.
New vendors/buyers here may have "form" on another forum.
By leaving only positive feedback you avoid the pitfalls that Erick so ably outlined (who buy the way, sent me a wonderful piece of gear! Ta again).
It also absolves the moderators of any responisiblity in what is, after all, a private transaction, and avoids any accusations of bias.
Just my $.02
Peter

I hear you Peter, but wouldnt this totally negate the point of suggesting it in the first place? i mean, if your only allowed to comment on ina positive fashion, then whats the point? i mean if someone tried to rip you off, or give you the run around, then whats the point of not being able to mention it, when the whole reasoning is to make people aware of the possible pitfalls?

Originally Posted by theodog

I have purchased several items through the IIS classifieds.
I tend to look at the number of posts and length of membership of the seller as a judge of legitimacy. If a recent member with few posts then a more personal contact may be req'd. As always -buyer beware.
I have often recieved follow up as to the safe arrival and condition of goods. My experiences have been positive, so feel that a rating system would be another burden for the Mod's. 2c

i do this to, but recently had a very well known IIS member, with a high post count etc, just messed me around something fierce with a purchase, so even this isnt bulletproof.

hey, its just an idea

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

Originally Posted by toryglen-boy

I hear you Peter, but wouldnt this totally negate the point of suggesting it in the first place? i mean, if your only allowed to comment on ina positive fashion, then whats the point? i mean if someone tried to rip you off, or give you the run around, then whats the point of not being able to mention it, when the whole reasoning is to make people aware of the possible pitfalls?

TB,
I sort of agree but....
I'll fess-up here and say I'm coming from the other side of the fence.
About 7 years ago I sold a 400mm 2.8 FD L lens on a photoforum.

My ad said "its broken, its knackered, aperture selection not working, focus mechanism loose, cosmetically rubbish, possibly used to club snakes, but optics A-1" (which they were). I made all the disclosure I could. I asked and got $US800 dollars with no quibbles about condition.

But the buyer p***ed and moaned on-line about receiving a crap lens and how I'd ripped him off. Fortunately the community was quite savvy and noted that $800 for that lens was cheap even if it was filled with mice!
But he was a long-timer and seemed to make it his business to try and trash my name. I threatend legal remedy but he would not demure.
I eventually took him to court and won $10,000 + costs but I had to leave the forum as the damage was done.

So, in principle I agree with you but you had better be in the right, because the same libel laws for print also apply to the internet!
"He who steals my purse "etc etc...
If you claim "X" tried to rip you off or deliberately sent you faulty goods, "X" could claim an honest miscommunication and unless you retracted you'd better bring cab-fare to court 'cuz "X" is going home in your Beemer. You could 'IMHO' your statement, but that doesn't always fly.

This is where the moderators have to get involved. And do they really want to waste observing time sorting out disputes in which they have no vested interest?
The 'no-negative' system works buy exclusion: Sales in Buy & Sell forum but no positive feedback, would be a good indicator of a duff seller.
It's not perfect. But it avoids on-line wars and you can still PM somebody with warnings about a seller. As long as they're not "shot-gunned", PM's are (I believe) treated as private conversations / communications where no statement of fact is assumed.

Geez, that took longer than I intented!
Sorry,
PJH

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Hi Peter

I hear you, its a tightrope.

let me tell you what recently prompted me to think about this.

i recently advertised something on here, a well known and popular member got in touch, and begged me for the item, he told me it was jsut what he was looking for, and could he please have it, he would have it for defo next week, and took all sorts of oaths and promises regarding the purchase of the item.

I didnt really want to sell it, but i needed to raise some money within that week to pay something, so i agreed. i told the other two people who where interested that they couldnt have it, and they where not best pleased.

a months passed without hearing anything from this member, i have PM'd him several times regarding this, and he just ignores me, what troubles me about this, is that i know for a fact that this isnt an isolated incident, and this member has done this to several other forum members, and keeps coming out with all sorts of BS. i dont think its malicious, i just think he sees something on the spur of the moment, wants its, says he will have it for defo, then backpedals with all sorts of garbage to get out of it.

I went back to the 2 other forum members who wanted the item, they didnt want it, after feeling like second best, and TBH, i cant blame them.

The thing is, we have all had sales fall through for no reason, or reasons out of our control, i recently went to buy a 200mm F5 reflector from a forum member, and i had every intention of buying it, i was going through court proceedings at the time to get access to my daughter, and got hit with a hefty bill to pay at the same time, as embarrased as i was, i went back to Jason, and told him that something had come up, and i was really sorry to have let him down, he was fine, because i had been honest, and upfront, and he had understood my plight, all because of communication. My partner seen that i was really down because of this, and bought me an OTA the next week, but thats beside the point.

I think just leaving positive feedback completely negates the system, as you would never know of anything bad, if quite simply its never listed, and TBH with the community on here, i dont expect anything bad to be said about anyone anyway! its just an observation, about being proactive, my intention isnt to stir trouble, but to put forward ideas for debate, to be discussed and deliberated by us, and the staff.

Originally Posted by Waxing_Gibbous

TB,
I sort of agree but....
I'll fess-up here and say I'm coming from the other side of the fence.
About 7 years ago I sold a 400mm 2.8 FD L lens on a photoforum.

My ad said "its broken, its knackered, aperture selection not working, focus mechanism loose, cosmetically rubbish, possibly used to club snakes, but optics A-1" (which they were). I made all the disclosure I could. I asked and got $US800 dollars with no quibbles about condition.

But the buyer p***ed and moaned on-line about receiving a crap lens and how I'd ripped him off. Fortunately the community was quite savvy and noted that $800 for that lens was cheap even if it was filled with mice!
But he was a long-timer and seemed to make it his business to try and trash my name. I threatend legal remedy but he would not demure.
I eventually took him to court and won $10,000 + costs but I had to leave the forum as the damage was done.

So, in principle I agree with you but you had better be in the right, because the same libel laws for print also apply to the internet!
"He who steals my purse "etc etc...
If you claim "X" tried to rip you off or deliberately sent you faulty goods, "X" could claim an honest miscommunication and unless you retracted you'd better bring cab-fare to court 'cuz "X" is going home in your Beemer. You could 'IMHO' your statement, but that doesn't always fly.

This is where the moderators have to get involved. And do they really want to waste observing time sorting out disputes in which they have no vested interest?
The 'no-negative' system works buy exclusion: Sales in Buy & Sell forum but no positive feedback, would be a good indicator of a duff seller.
It's not perfect. But it avoids on-line wars and you can still PM somebody with warnings about a seller. As long as they're not "shot-gunned", PM's are (I believe) treated as private conversations / communications where no statement of fact is assumed.

Geez, that took longer than I intented!
Sorry,
PJH

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

TB,
Yes, I DO actually agree, but one has to really careful. Honest errors DO happen. Fer instance I owe Mr. David Booth an apology re his EQ Mount!!!!
I promised to get in touch with him a couple of weeks back, but then all kinds of hell broke loose on the farm and its only now settling down. I actually forgot that I hadn't - so sorry David!!!
WTTC next week!
Before we go full-steam ahead with the negative-feedback forum, perhaps a (volunteer) 3rd party arbitor could be bought in to try and sort things out?
Another idea is to put some sort of onus on the seller as he/she is basically at the advantage:
I offer a 7 day, money-back on the few items I sell. If you don't like it for whatever reason. Send it back within 7 days in the same (or better) condition and I'll refund your $$ (less postage).
As to the buyer - they would have to put-up within 3 business days (or by agreement) or loose their place, and negative feedback could be left after a week providing there were no extenuating circumstances (fire, flood, teenagers ets.)
I believe we each have valid reasons for our positions, but I'd just hate to see IIS degenerate into what dpreview.com has become! The endless *****ing and backbiting is really pretty tiresome.
PJH

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Some excellent ideas there Peter, i like you, am not interested in name calling, merely in recording the facts, as i would hate to see something degenerate into slagging match.

Your right, honest mistake do happen, as i explained myself.

although this wasnt an honest mistake

Originally Posted by Waxing_Gibbous

TB,
Yes, I DO actually agree, but one has to really careful. Honest errors DO happen. Fer instance I owe Mr. David Booth an apology re his EQ Mount!!!!
I promised to get in touch with him a couple of weeks back, but then all kinds of hell broke loose on the farm and its only now settling down. I actually forgot that I hadn't - so sorry David!!!
WTTC next week!
Before we go full-steam ahead with the negative-feedback forum, perhaps a (volunteer) 3rd party arbitor could be bought in to try and sort things out?
Another idea is to put some sort of onus on the seller as he/she is basically at the advantage:
I offer a 7 day, money-back on the few items I sell. If you don't like it for whatever reason. Send it back within 7 days in the same (or better) condition and I'll refund your $$ (less postage).
As to the buyer - they would have to put-up within 3 business days (or by agreement) or loose their place, and negative feedback could be left after a week providing there were no extenuating circumstances (fire, flood, teenagers ets.)
I believe we each have valid reasons for our positions, but I'd just hate to see IIS degenerate into what dpreview.com has become! The endless *****ing and backbiting is really pretty tiresome.
PJH

[marki]

Duncan I think a star rating system would be best. That way you just click a number between 1 - 5 and no words need to be exchanged. It would be easier on the mods and avoid any issues involving lawyers. All the stuff I have bought from the classifieds has been as advertised and all transactions have been very positive.

Mark

[toryglen-boy (Duncan)]

Originally Posted by marki

Duncan I think a star rating system would be best. That way you just click a number between 1 - 5 and no words need to be exchanged. It would be easier on the mods and avoid any issues involving lawyers. All the stuff I have bought from the classifieds has been as advertised and all transactions have been very positive.

Mark

as in general, have mine. Yes mate, a star rating would be great.