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Old 26-08-2009, 10:20 AM
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QSI Arrives

Well I finally have the QSI in my possession. Interesting looking unit and quite heavy for its apparent size.

I was a bit distressed to learn that I had to install the LRGB filters myself. I had thought that I was going to receive the unit with them installed. QSI does this in a clean room if you want it done. I did ask for it to be done but something got lost in translation.

I had a bit of trouble working out how to do darks in Maxim, but I have worked this out now. There are quite a few tutorials I came across that helped.

Connecting the unit and installing software was a breeze. Every thing is self explanatory in that regard. It is just Maxim that is not very intuitive.

Any tips on this steep learning curve would be much appreciated. There is going to be quite a lot to learn.
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  #2  
Old 26-08-2009, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Haese View Post
Well I finally have the QSI in my possession. Interesting looking unit and quite heavy for its apparent size.

I was a bit distressed to learn that I had to install the LRGB filters myself. I had thought that I was going to receive the unit with them installed. QSI does this in a clean room if you want it done. I did ask for it to be done but something got lost in translation.

I had a bit of trouble working out how to do darks in Maxim, but I have worked this out now. There are quite a few tutorials I came across that helped.

Connecting the unit and installing software was a breeze. Every thing is self explanatory in that regard. It is just Maxim that is not very intuitive.

Any tips on this steep learning curve would be much appreciated. There is going to be quite a lot to learn.

looks excellent Paul, cant wait to see your first images with it


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  #3  
Old 26-08-2009, 10:29 AM
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No doubt the first images are going to look pretty ordinary. This is just a whole new way of thinking. I am sort of accustomed to it with using RGB on my planetary stuff, but this looks slightly more complicated.

I will work it out in the end though. I want to make the next step in imaging.
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Old 26-08-2009, 11:31 AM
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renormalised (Carl)
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Smile

Nice looking unit there, Paul. I hope it lives upto your expectations and you get some cracker piccies from it
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  #5  
Old 26-08-2009, 07:55 PM
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Green with envy, like most others no doubt, congrats Paul.
To my way of thinking it won't be all that different to the RGB planetary.
Use Maxim (I presume you will??) and simply shoot the three colours then use Maxim to process.
Baby steps for a while, but knowing you it will be a piece of cake.
Gary
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Old 26-08-2009, 08:41 PM
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Nice piece of kit right there, you will eventually get CCD stack, its a given, and it looks like its the guide-before-the-filter model, which is a smart purchase. Your headed for some awesome pics there Paul, RGB aint that hard, youll laugh in a few weeks. Now you can indulge in 3nm Ha filters and the like, and really cream it.
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Old 26-08-2009, 09:18 PM
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Great looking camera.

I recommend you standardise your image lengths. 10 minutes is a good length.

Also the temperature. In winter you will be able to get a camera down to -25C without too much trouble. In summer it may only get to -15C. Not sure how much your camera will cool.

So take 12 darks at -25C 10minutes each 1x1 binning. Make a master dark in CCDstack and use sigma reject for combining them.

Now take 8 bias frames and make a master out of them.

Now do the above again but for 2x2 binning. That is for your RGB exposures where most people use 2x2 binning.

When you are ready to image have your setup focused and camera in the position you will image. Now take some dusk flats. Put a white T-shirt over the end of your scope, point the scope 10 degrees above the horizon towards the west where its evenly illuminated. When its twilight take 3 shots each of at least 3 seconds long and so you get a reading of around 21,000 from the image (about 1/3rd saturated).

Do this rapidly for each LRGB. So Luminance is usually imaged at 1x1 binning so do those flats at 1x1. Do the RGB flats individually and the camera set to 2x2.

Make masters out of your flats and subtract the bias you made above from it. You don't need the bias again after that.

When you are ready to start the image at night, do 10 minute subexposures at 1x1 for luminance and 10 minutes at 2x2 for RGB.

A common exposure time is 6x10 for luminance, 3 x 10 each for RGB.

Then you process these in CCDstack. callibrate by dark subtract and flats. Then data reject removing hot/cold pixels then register to align and then save as a master file for that LRG or B.

Then when you have masters for each of the LRGB you do a colour combine.

Then you save and switch to Photoshop where the first step is to use levels/curves to bring the image up.

Sounds like a lot but its not really.

Greg.
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Old 26-08-2009, 09:48 PM
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Paul....you only need darks, and flats.

A bias frame = a zero second dark exposure.

Hence *any* non zero dark has the bias there already....sigh...

I'm sure you will enjoy the new toy.
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Old 26-08-2009, 11:24 PM
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Thanks so much Fred, Greg and Peter for the advice. It will give me a good start. Much appreciated.

Gary, I am not as certain as you of the speed at which I will pick this up.
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Old 27-08-2009, 12:16 AM
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He's gettin the kit alright

Exciting times Paul

Mike
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  #11  
Old 27-08-2009, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Ward View Post
Paul....you only need darks, and flats.

A bias frame = a zero second dark exposure.

Hence *any* non zero dark has the bias there already....sigh...

I'm sure you will enjoy the new toy.
You should mind your manners Peter - no need to be rude.

To subtract a bias from your flat is standard procedure in CCDstack and in Wodaski's Zone book. If you feel otherwise you may well be right but
you could express that politely.

Greg.
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Old 27-08-2009, 09:27 PM
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strongmanmike (Michael)
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Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
You should mind your manners Peter - no need to be rude.

To subtract a bias from your flat is standard procedure in CCDstack and in Wodaski's Zone book. If you feel otherwise you may well be right but
you could express that politely.

Greg.
I have to agree with Peter here and I didn't take his comment as rude Greg .. slightly obtuse perhaps but not rude
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Old 27-08-2009, 09:46 PM
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Nice ! I had a look at the site, great cam's for sure
What model did you get? I can't read it off the photo
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  #14  
Old 27-08-2009, 11:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
You should mind your manners Peter - no need to be rude.

To subtract a bias from your flat is standard procedure in CCDstack and in Wodaski's Zone book. If you feel otherwise you may well be right but
you could express that politely.

Greg.
Easy does it Greg...you were not the subject of my post.

But as you've mentioned it, Ron is by no means the source of CCD gospel. There are a number of areas where I, and *many* others, do not have the same world view as Ron.

Subtracting a bias from a flat makes no sense unless you are operating at cryogenic temperatures...i.e. not taking darks.

For the rest of us darks are a necessary evil, and by defintion contain bias information, which is automatically taken out of a flat during dark frame subtraction.

For Paul: Mate, it's easy to calibrate images. All you need is a good library of matching dark frames (ie exposure and temp the same as the data), and flat frames for each filter....but I think you already knew that
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Old 28-08-2009, 06:27 AM
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I posted the question on another group and Stan Moore the author of CCDstack answered. Here is his answer about whether to subtract a bias from your flats when making a master flat or not.

One thing to keep in mind is that flats are divided and darks are subtracted so it is a different mathematical operation.

I must say though in my experience as I have done flats without bias the difference is not great but there is a subtle improvement when a bias is correctly done and subtracted from the flats before using them.

"
For the flat divide to work properly, the camera's bias (or pedestal) must be
removed (subtracted) from the flat prior to flat fielding (normalization and
division), otherwise the flat fielding will under-correct (e.g. vignetting or
dust donuts will not be completely removed). There are 3 ways to remove the
bias:

1) Dark subtract the flat as if it was a normal exp (in fact it is).

or

2) Subtract a Bias from the flat (instead of a dark). Flat exps are commonly
very short and there is not enough time for significant dark current to
accumulate (e.g. there is very little difference between a 2 sec dark and a
bias). What little difference there may be (between dark and bias) is totally
insignificant due to the flat's high intensity, which completely buries any dark
current. This is very convenient because you can create a high quality bias
(e.g. made from 30+ frames) once and use it repeatedly, regardless of flat temp
and exp time.

or

3) Subtract a constant (equal the avg bias level) from the flat. This usually
works just fine unless the cameras has a very strong bias pattern and the flat
is very weak.

Stan
http://www.stanmooreastro.com/"

I suspect the above is more important if you have a lot of dust donuts in your image or if your camera is pretty noisy or if your cameras' bias pattern drifts around and is not stable.

Greg.
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  #16  
Old 28-08-2009, 08:42 AM
rally
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Thanks for the informative discussion Greg.
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  #17  
Old 28-08-2009, 09:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
I posted the question on another group and Stan Moore the author of CCDstack answered.
>Snip
Greg.
Hey Greg

After seeing references to CCDStack in your posts and from a few of the other imagers on Ice In Space, I just recently purchased a copy of CCDStack (30 day free trial) and most recently, the Adam Block DVD tutorials (separate purchase) which arrived yesterday and I’m just munching my way through the learning curve.

I really like CCDStack as it seems tailored specifically to what I need to do with my ST7 CCD images. Previously, I had to use functionality from CCDSoft, MIRA AP, Maxim DL and AIP4Win and now, I can do all of this is a single, tailored environment!

Cheers

Dennis
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  #18  
Old 28-08-2009, 01:44 PM
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CCDstack is a great program although it does not handle memory too well and larger file sizes cause disruptions. But apart from that its great.

Here is another response to this question of bias from Richard Crisp who is a CCD electronics engineer and been the head of various groups about CCD research and is super knowledgeable on the subject:

"You have to remove the offset from both the flats and the image in order for the flat fielding operation to function correctly

Usually flats are of short duration so there is not much on the way of dark fixed pattern noise, so biases are as good as darks for creating your flats

Image exposures are usually longer than flats so the tend to have more dark spikes (dark fixed pattern noise) so darks are appropriate for calibration

If you don't remove the offset from your darks by subtracting bias, then subtracting the dark will remove the offset from the image

If you keep a library of bias subtracted darks then you need to subtract biases when calibrating with such darks"
Richard.

Greg
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  #19  
Old 28-08-2009, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post
There are 3 ways to remove the
bias:

1) Dark subtract the flat as if it was a normal exp (in fact it is).
Gosh, darn it, looks like Stan and I agree

I use the KIS principle....(keep it simple). While Stan does mention using just bias with ultra short flats, I'd also point out you will get an iris shadow pattern from the resulting uneven exposure seen in some shutters..eg Melles Griot... which can cause even more grief as the shadow variation, varies with the exposure time (Hey Bert, this would be a challenging differential equation ! )

I've seen this many times with these shutters and the only fix is to take long exposure flats which by definition will require method (1)
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Old 28-08-2009, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregbradley View Post

Here is another response to this question of bias from Richard Crisp who is a CCD electronics engineer and been the head of various groups about CCD research and is super knowledgeable on the subject:

".... so biases are as good as darks for creating your flats"
Greg, sure, Richard knows his onions, but this is only true with equi-illumination shutters....as I mentioned in my earlier post.....you *will* get uneven shadowing with any other type of shutter....and while dark noise goes down with a decrease in flat field exposure, shadowing increases, totally negating the point of taking a flat frame.
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