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  #1  
Old 10-05-2009, 10:02 PM
TheCrazedLog
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Choices choices: EQ6 vs C8 vs what?

Hey all

I have about $3000 burning a hole in my pocket (well not quite true but anyway). At the moment I have a GSO 10" Dob from Bintel. Looking to move into some low key photography (both deep sky and solar system), with some visual on the side. I now have a choice:

- EQ6 with stuff to attach the dob to it. High 2000's I understand.
- C8 XLT SGT (http://www.celestron.com/c3/product.php?ProdID=60). Something in the region of 3 grand.

I live in near Forestville in the northern suburbs of Sydney. Mildly interested in viewing, bit more into photography. At the moment I've got an el-cheapo DSI II (I think?) pro, but wouldn't want to spend more than 6-800 bucks on a camera in the future. Would I go for a guide-scope setup? Maybe.

Part of my glorious life plan is when I finish my private pilot's license, I can fly out west with a scope, park the plane somewhere in the middle of nowhere and have a viewing night, thus neatly encompassing three hobbies (flying, astronomy and wallet-emptying)

Now. With a 10" on a EQ6, I doubt I could accomplish this unless I bolt the scope the roof of the Piper. This has several associated problems, not in the least being getting by without the traffic controllers noticing (for some reason this is looked down upon). With a C8 I reckon I could get it inside no worries.

Further, to my understanding of matters, an Eq6 is working a bit to mount a 10'' on it. I could wear through it fairly easily. Besides, the C8 just looks cool. And its more portable.
Being relativly new to this, I wonder if putting this scope up is a bit beyond me.

Against all of that is the apperture of the 10'' vs the 8'', the fact that once I buy a EQ6 I can buy pretty much any scope and bolt it to it and never need to buy a mount again (well, until this one wears out). I could get nice deep sky images, learning a lot through the way. Further, a fully motorised tracking hot water heater does kind of look cool....

What are your thoughts? Is there another option I should consider?

Anthony
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  #2  
Old 10-05-2009, 10:14 PM
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h0ughy (David)
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hold onto your money for the minute. Attend a few Astro clubs open nights or meetings/viewing nights and get to see what they have and how they use it. There will be a heap of different scopes and opinions. You need to work out what you want to do and how you will achieve it. both items you mentioned have their plus and minus points - and different applications. - or better still you could go to ASNSW ilford site for the SPSP in two weeks time - worth the time money and effort in attending - you will be guaranteed of finding what you would like and what you can have LOL.
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  #3  
Old 10-05-2009, 10:39 PM
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Tandum (Robin)
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I'd use the 10" dob on an eq6 and slap a cheap guide scope beside it. The DSI is a great guide camera, you got that. All you'd need then is a GPUSB box to send guide pules to the mount from the DSI, a camera to plug into the 10" dob and a laptop or similar to tie it all together. You may have to modify the 10" dob depending on the camera used.
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  #4  
Old 11-05-2009, 01:20 PM
andrew2008
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Not related to the question but if you ever need company on one of your trips may i be the first to offer to come along
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  #5  
Old 11-05-2009, 06:57 PM
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Moon (James)
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Quote:
Not related to the question but if you ever need company on one of your trips may i be the first to offer to come along
Me too - I'll bring my EQ6, C8 SCT tube and DSLR . Can you pick me up at Moorabbin airport?

Seriously, I think it's good advice to see one of these in action first. The C8 has some issues for imaging.
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  #6  
Old 11-05-2009, 07:14 PM
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netwolf
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I would start with a small focal ration and then work up to the long focal ratio's. The Vixen mount on sale (if it has not sold already) in the used section is a good one to start with. And it will let you start small and explore longer FL's upto 8". These usually have very low PE compared to the EQ6.
A Ed80, with the Vixen and your DSLR would be a good start. You can then work up to a GSO RC 8" or VC200L. And perhaps a Qhy8.

SPend more of your money on getting a good mount (Even with less load capacity) that has low or guidable PE at long FL's. Optics will come and go over time, but better to start with a good mount and short FL's and work your way up.

The EQ6 is a good mount but still suffers from high PE. This will not affect you for shorter FL's (if guided) but it will need some fine tuning to get it to work at longer FL's.
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  #7  
Old 11-05-2009, 07:21 PM
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With that lot you will need 30 degree of flaps and a lot of revs about 2575 might make it, just to get to circuit height! Without dreams we merely exist!

Bert
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  #8  
Old 11-05-2009, 10:27 PM
TheCrazedLog
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Hey all:

Thanks for the replys so far. I'm sort of looking for a middle scope between visual and photography, with a good bit on of portability. I would like this next scope to last me for a few years yet without to much needed to add. In other words, I want the moon

To my mind the C8 seems to sort of fit this bill. You mention problems imaging with the C8 and at high FL (focal lengths?). What are these problems?

(To all those who wish to come along for the ride: sure. you can pay for half the hire of the plane and meet me at Bankstown )

Ta

Anthony
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  #9  
Old 12-05-2009, 01:56 AM
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Anthony,

All mounts have a periodic error, that stem from various fundamental mechanical factors. This errors are greater in some mounts than others. The general peak of this error will be based at the fundmental period of your main worm gear, there will be other smaller peaks based around the periods of other smaller gears in your gear train. These usually will not affect short exposure work like Planet imaging. But will affect longer exposure DSO work.

This is because the aim of the game in terms of imaging is to gather as much signal as possible so as to reduce the overal Signal to Noise ratio. That is each frame you capture of certain lenght t, will have some random noise. However by capturing more frames you, the common signal (the actual object) willbe boosted and random noise will be rejected.

A t second exposre at a FL of f, will prduce a signal+noise s+n.
If you double the FL to 2F, and wish to capture the same amount of signal strength then you must double the time for the exposure. So eventually your exposure length will be affected by the movment caused by the PE of your mount.

With Planet imaging long FL is a requirement to achive bigger image scale. However given there relative brightness of planets to DSO's (even at long FL's) they require much less in terms of exposure to cpature and using high frame rate camera's you can gather plenty of frames to improve signal quality. Even at long FL's the exposure time is still relatively much smaller than the usual PE of your mount, so its not as badly affected.

For DSO work, your often need much longer exposure times in order to get some signal to be recorded. The longest exposure time will be determined ofcourse by your light pollution limit. This is the point at which your signal will be washed out by the light pollution. At shorter FL's you can use lots of shorter exposures to gather signal and as such are going to be less affected by the PE of the mount. But at longer FL's your exposure time will need to be increased and you will start to see the PE affect your images. Hence guiding is a requirment at these FL's.

Essentially as you increase FL, your field of view will reduce, your exposure time will increases and the PE is going to become more noticable.


One form of correctio for PE Is PEC, where essentially you record the PE of yoru mount using a star. Your mount electronics then can reaplay this back while you are mount is running to negate the effect of the error. Imagine a Sine wave and you then add a sine way 180degrees out of phase to it. You esentially cancel it out. Essentially each gear/worm or gear/gear will have a period and a error around that period, if these are small then they can be remvoed by recording and replaying a inverse waveform. Two factors are critical here the magnitude of the erorr and the period.
The magnitude must not be high enough to move a star in your frame such that its recordable. The period should be such that its longer than your exposure lenght. If the magnitude is high and the period is shorter than your exposure time then even with correction you will see it. Because even the correction will cause an error, due to other factors like backlash etc. If the magnitude is small and the period is long then PEC and guiding will help get you longer exposures (up till your sky limit). However there is only so much this can do as the random error will not be repeatable and hence can not be removed. This requires guiding on a star while imaging to remove, so live corrections can be made to the mount while taking your exposure.

But even with guiding and or PEC some mounts are better than others. Infact some mounts do not come with PEC at all as there PE is very low. And can be more easily guided out. Hence the reccomendation to get the best mount you can afford.

You have in your post noted a very important aspect your location, this will determine your sky limit. You can use your DSLR and do a quick check of this by exposing a short Fl lense for various periods and see when the sky glow washes it out. And if you are not going to image anywhere but your primary location then this is important deciding factor. And even if you visit dark skies you need to establish how often so you dont buy equipment that is only going to be used some few days in year.

One other method to tackle bad PE is the use of AO, adaptive optics. This an expensive option but can provide very good results. But I find that the money you spend on this could be better invested in a better mount. However AO does have its place and I have seen amazing results from its users. A lot of the fork mounted scopes from Meade and Celestron suffered high PE magnitudes and AO is a great way to reduce this effect and make them viable imaging platforms. Check out this guy's page
http://www.astroanarchy.blogspot.com/
And here is his example, right one is using guiding via a second telescope and left one is using AO.
http://bp1.blogger.com/_9HcYqbvUc4s/.../AO-no+AOy.jpg

As others have suggested there is much to be learned ahead of you and you will greatly benfit from going to club nights and interacting and making friends with others. There information and help will be your gretest asset, not your equipment.

I leave it for others more experinced to correct any errros i have made. As I am no expert on these, only surmising what i have gleaned so far.

Regards
Fahim

Last edited by netwolf; 12-05-2009 at 02:31 AM.
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  #10  
Old 12-05-2009, 07:53 AM
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rider
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problem solved

I think Ive found just the right kit for your combination of hobbies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SOFIA

Rider
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  #11  
Old 12-05-2009, 09:32 AM
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CoolhandJo (Paul)
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You can pick up Bintel's 200mm f/5 Newtonian coupled with the EQ6 Pro GOTO mount for $2695! Whack an ED80 on it and your away!
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  #12  
Old 13-05-2009, 09:23 AM
TheCrazedLog
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The man has a point.... would https://www.bintelshop.com.au/Product.aspx?ID=8164 + https://www.bintelshop.com.au/Product.aspx?ID=7290 = Better imaging? (Thanks for the replies so far. Netwolf: I'm still trying to get my head the content around your post... eventually it'll get through my skull )
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  #13  
Old 13-05-2009, 10:03 AM
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CoolhandJo (Paul)
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I was at Bintel yesterday (picking up due heaters). I asked about the Newt and ED80 setup. Michael explained to me that the good thing about the Newt is the 1000mm focul length vs the short tube ED80. Both scopes wil produce different image depths and compliment eachother depending on the target. So if you already have a SCT, then get this Newt + ED80 you just about have everything covered off as far as imaging goes and F ratios etc.
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  #14  
Old 13-05-2009, 08:04 PM
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netwolf
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Now i sit back and look at the post i am going what the heck was i thinking. Once you work it out you can come around and explain it to me.

You may also want to take a look here
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm
about half way down.

200 x 1000P with EQ6PRO Go-To mount (white) and V3.0 Go-To hand controller
$2399.00 AUD

and

Skywatcher SW-252
254 x 1200P EQ6PRO Go-To mount with V3.0 Go-To hand controller

Super low pricing!
$2499.00 AUD



The second setup is what EzyStyles uses he has the Celestron badged Synta tube called the NGT10
http://www.ezystyles.com.au/gallery2...p?g2_itemId=37

Newtonians are great scopes, and with coma correctors are known to produce excellent bang for buck results.

One point of concern with Newts, are there size and dimensions have made some users call them like Wind Sails. Balance and Keeping the wind off will be key factors. As well as DIY'ing some Tube rings that will let you rotate the ota. Otherwise a newt on a eq mount places the focuser in very hard to get at positions.

An 8" F4 would be a sweet newt to go for and if you can afford it the R200SS is a good one to get, but the GSO 8" F4 is not very far behind. Coupled with a good coma corrector your will be set along with your DSLR to turn out some great imaging. The only other must is a ED80 as already stated this combo is perhaps the combo.


If you later decide to look at a C8, consider the used market here and overseas places like Amart. Late 80's and 90's C8's are well respected by many as the best to come out of Celestron.
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