Usual advice queries on new scope

DENMONKEY (Brett) · #1 10-01-2009, 02:51 AM

Hi All,

Let me say that I stumbled onto this site earlier this evening and it's now after 2 in the morning. My eyes are killing me but there is just so much info here I fear I may just see the daylight creeping through the window before I take my leave and hit the hay.

I have what I would refer to little to no real experience with scopes save an older tasco (don't laugh) 4.5 inch reflector on an old wooden tripod I picked up off ebay about 12 months ago.

You know how it goes, late night net surfing leads to ebay and since I'm into my photography and they list telescopes all in the same section ...well you know what happens.

Suffice to say it cost me all of 70 dollars and with some quick searches on google that suggested no major flaws I jumped in.
What the hell, I spend more on smokes in a week.
The eye pieces that came with it were at best pity full paper weights and more googling saw me advised to invest in some decent eyepieces for better results.
A week and $400 later I was now the proud owner of a 2inch celestron kit.
I live next door to a motel and a neighbor who dearly loves to have his backyard lit all bloody night I've still managed to spend quite a few hours staring in amazement at the moon.

Since the light issue in my own back yard is very restrictive regardless of how closely I huddled beside the shed wall, I was unable to locate, let alone view anything else of interest.

So several months later with my interest still there, I headed up country with the scope, beer and a few friends in tow.
Armed with a planisphere, new red dot finder and compass I figured it would make for some new sites.
Still I returned home not seeing anything smaller than the moon (relatively speaking

) and somewhat disappointed.

Since then the scope has been pulled out a few times for a quick sticky at the moon but these efforts are becoming fewer and fewer.

This leads me to where I am now and the questions I promised in my title.
I've been looking at some second hand scopes and have a budget of roughly 800 to play with for now. This could go up later but for now I don't wish to spend much more until I'm sure it's just the ****ty equipment I have now which has me unmotivated.
If I decide down the track this is for me then I may be able to talk myself into spending less money on my motorbike and throw a few more bucks this way.

Anyway I may be able to lay my hands on a Celestron c8 SCT with little to no accessories around my budget point.
As I understand it, it comes on a motorized fork mount (don't know much about these) with a manual controller.

Right now though I'm kind of torn between a larger diameter Dob and the SCT.
I'd like to to view plants and DSOs and ultimately would like to combine my photography to the hobby at a later date.

The photography aspect has me leaning towards a powered mount to permit tracking to make things simpler.
I also am guessing there is the option of converting the SCT with its mount to a go-to option of some sort down the track .
Not certain on this one so advice is welcome here.
I figure anything that can help me out in the early stages to find objects to look at has to be a bonus and assist in maintaining my interest.

Also I like the portability of the SCT compared to the DOB as well.
I've read many times the scope you are most likely to enjoy and use is the one you are able to use the easiest.

So I guess the questions are

1. Will the C8 SCT permit me to view the objects I'm interested in?

2. Would there be a major difference between the 2 viewing wise. Object viewing etc and would this outweigh the portability issue?

3. Would the C8 SCT with motorized mount be the better option considering my long term photography goal?

4. Would anyone know if I can get the C8 to accept my current eyepieces at 2inch?

Any additional advice is obviously welcome and appreciated.

Sorry for the massive post but might as well get it all out there at once

Oh and anyone in the Newcastle area know of any of those star party dodads that go on or would be willing to let me tag along with them if they head out for a nights viewing to pick up some pointers let me know.

Cheers Brett

Blue Skies (Jacquie) · #2 10-01-2009, 08:34 PM

Hi Brett,

I'm surprised no one has answered you yet - the local novacastrians must all be asleep.

There certainly is an active club in your area and should make a concerted effort to get down and meet them and join in, they will able to answer most of you questions in a flash.

However, I don't think you'll find an SCT for under $2000, even second hand and even if it doesn't have goto, not unless its such an old model thats been bashed around that it probably wont be good enough to use without extensive work, so you'd be back at square one with that. You may be better saving your pennies for a working kit - I don't know about the Newcastle club but perhaps they have loan telescopes that you could borrow and help you with your observing cravings while you save up for a SCT.

If you get an SCT the 2" eps are no problem, but you will need to get a 2" diagonal to use them.

CB (Chris) · #3 10-01-2009, 10:34 PM

Hi Brett,
Here is a link to our club here in Newcastle: www.nas.org.au
Have a look around and you will find we have meetings that you would be welcome to come along to with veiwing nights as well as sidewalk astronomy nights for the public.
There will be plenty of members to talk to about what you might need.

Cheers
Chris
(Vice President)

DENMONKEY (Brett) · #4 10-01-2009, 11:34 PM

Hi Jacquie thanks for the reply.
We do like to take our time here in Newcastle. I guess that's what we like about the place

Cheers for the advice tis appreciated.

Will keep an eye on the page for the updates on the next viewing night Chris.
Is it just a rock up affair and introduce yourself around or do I need to post something up saying that i will be coming along etc ?
Do I need to become a member to pop along for a few hours?

On that note about having to have a scope worked on, I've only visited a shop at Broadmeadow 'Survey and instrument Specialists' and asked them about doing a 'service' on any scope I pick up 2nd hand but they said they may look at it if they have time.
Not really the response I was looking for but the young bloke in there was very helpful and passed on Ghuls mobile number.

When asked who he would suggest to do any service work he said that I would need to go to Sydney to have anything done.
Is this right or is there someone local to Newcastle or even the central coast who could perform the work ?

CB (Chris) · #5 11-01-2009, 11:36 PM

Hi again Brett,
As you might have seen our main veiwing is the last Saturday night of the month depending on the weather of cause, just rock up around dusk or just before no need to be a member & introduce yourself you'll be most welcome.
As to getting someone to look at fixing your scope, Bintel at Glebe (Sydney) would be the best place. By the way what is the problem. If it just an alinement problem then someone in the club could help you out.

If you would like to ring me my number is 0412 786 846 only to happy to talk with you.

Cheers
Chris

DENMONKEY (Brett) · #6 12-01-2009, 12:04 AM

Hi Chris,

Fingers crossed time and weather permitting I will come along for a look see.
How many usually turn up for the reg meet?
I know these things are sometimes all in or no-one in type affair

I'd like to get along whilst the warm weather lasts.

Thanks for the advice on repairs/servicing etc.
Seems ol' Bintel have earned themselves a nice reputation on here and from what I've read it appears well deserved.
I've also been keeping an eye on York while I consider my options. With that discount I don't think they can be beaten on price. Very bloody impressive I might say.

If things go well, I will have something to bring with me if I make it this month's meet and would love some pointers etc.
So that could be perfect timing.

As for the problem, there are/is none.
I was just figuring if I picked up something second hand it would be a worthwhile exercise to take it in for a service/clean etc or what ever else may be warranted.
Just so I know if something isn't working, it's me and not the scope.

Thanks for the offer of a call. I may get in touch before the viewing night to see if you are going to be there.
Might make it a slight less awkward than turning up knowing no-one.

For now though I won't impose and will just stick to using the board and reading everything I can get my hands on.

Cheers Brett

DENMONKEY (Brett) · #7 13-01-2009, 11:07 PM

Some additional questions if I may.
I'm considering a road trip down to York in sydney on the weekend and am looking at researching the dob options.
The reason the SCT has me so interested is the portability of the unit.
With this in mind I've got my eye on the truss mount dobs.
The 8" with the discount is almost too good to go past but with all the guff about buying the largest scope you can afford I also have to consider the 10" as well.

Ultimately when considering these options the 10 would probably be preferred but I'm not willing to drop any optionshttp://www.yorkoptical.com.au/Produc...%2cProductName from the list just yet.

Are there any issues associated with a truss mount over a solid tube ?

As mentioned long term I would like to dabble in photography so would a truss mount severely limit my options for mounting and some sort of tracking options ?

Anyone had any experience with these new type trusses?
Do they lock in place well enough and provide solid support?

http://www.yorkoptical.com.au/portal...06-018-I01.jpg

I'm guessing collimation would still be required each time it is set up but would these styles limit the amount required given the assumption that the mounting points should not move a great deal?

I'm still not sure I like the idea of tracking or moving manually but as I said am trying to keep my options open.

Again thanks for any replies in advance.

CB (Chris) · #8 14-01-2009, 06:28 PM

Hi Brett,
I noticed you mentioned "I would like to dabble in photography so would a truss mount severely limit my options for mounting and some sort of tracking options ?" Well STOP right there.
Astrophotography is a bug, once it gets hold of you it won't let go.
What you have to decide on is what you want the scope for.
A (trus) dob is great for quickly moving around the sky but must be aloud to cool down (5mins for evey inch of aperure) and then collimated. Because this comes apart, it never goes back the same way so mirrors will be out.
Photograhy wise good for the moon and some planets. A goto drive for the dob is available at a large cost.
A straight tube dob is a little more flexible, stays collimated for longer. Same easy to move around the sky with and photography as above. But the BIG advantage is that up can make addons as you go like purchasing a HEQ5 GoTo mount for 8" or 10", guide scope, camera adapters, low profile focuser which can be bought as your piggy bank will allow. The bigger the scope the bigger the mount.
Plus how big is your car? Whatever you buy make sure it will fit along with all other accessories including passengers.

I started off with a 8" dob Photo 1 and then added as I went along with HEQ5 mount then GoTo system, Guide scope and camera, Planetary camera and adapters for my DSLR Photo 2. I was into photography as well and now I have a good setup that works for me.
But as I said in the begining think about what you want to do and go from there, forget specials cause if you choose he wrong path it can cost you more in the long run.

Sorry to be doom & gloom but better you know than don't know. Better off going along to a veiwing night and see first hand what you can do with the different types of scopes and talk to there owners.
Cheers
Chris

acropolite (Phil) · #9 14-01-2009, 06:57 PM

An 8 inch dob would be a good starting point. If you decide later to dabble in Astrophotography the OTA from the dob will make a manageable setup on an HEQ5 or EQ6 mount. Most late model dobs or newt OTA's come with 2 inch focussers so your EP set will work nicely. With 10 inches or more you will see fainter objects, but the tradeoff is portability and ease of setup.

FWIW York optical are currently advertising the Skywatcher 8 inch dob (SW680) for $599, and there is a discount offer of 20% for Iceinspace members if ordering on line which would make the SW680 around $480 .

Surreal · #10 14-01-2009, 08:29 PM

I was down at York in Melbourne today, and the Skywatcher 8 inch dob is actually $509 with the discount, it's $1 shy of the 20% discount. I'm also looking to purchase a similar scope, and York will give you the discount if you buy in person too.

DENMONKEY (Brett) · #11 14-01-2009, 11:41 PM

Cheers all for the responses.

Seems my requirements and goals aren't exactly aligned as such.

I like the portability and size of the 10inch truss (allows me larger apeture and portability int he same package) but if it's going to cause problems down the road with my interest in the photography side of things then maybe I need to reconsider.

I pretty much know that whilst cost and ability to add-on later to a solid tube option is what would appear ideal for my imaging wishes, I can pretty much guarantee that I will be unlikely to want to pack the thing in the car (medium hatch) when I wish to do some traveling with it for better views.
Fit wouldn't be a problem but taking the scope and a friend or 2 might be

. Maybe I need to reconsider my friend count

.

I could always at a later date, if I remain keen pick up a second hand solid tube for this purpose.

Yet again though, until I read your replies I was leaning towards the 10inch truss, I am now moving back towards the 8inch SCT I have my eye on.
This already has a motor driven fork mount, is small enough to travel with and comes with an adapter for my dlsr.
I think it's also going to allow me to be more comfortable when viewing and I must admit to being a bit of a gadget fan when it comes to anything electronic

.
Hell i could probably set the thing tracking and sit back to watch it move on it's own without even having to look through it

.

So it also seems that my interest in both visual viewing and imaging aren't necessarily best of friends either unless of course I want to quadruple my budget

Oh and as a side not my eps are actually 1.25s ...don't even ask

Thanks for the no BS response Chris.
I will be coming along to the viewing night in Newy in a few weeks and as luck would have it will be starting a weeks leave from work at the same time.

The issue I have is that I need to make a decision on the SCT before I will have the chance to come along and check things out. That a few other things line up nicely for me to be able to make the trip to Sydney next week for a look see as well.

Starting to think I need a wet weather hobby though.

From all reports I can expect ****e weather once I make the purchase and between this, photography and the bike if it's crap outside then I may end up watching the shopping channel or something nasty like that.

God love the interweb

bmitchell82 (Brendan) · #12 15-01-2009, 11:17 AM

okay another no BS response...

Fork mounts - Photography. bad ju ju's unless you have some specific equipment namely Feild De Rotators and Wedge Polar mounts. all extra $$$$$$$$.

This is where it becomes more complex part of astro photography. F numbers.

High f# good resolution at high magnification small FOV.
Low f# good resolution at low magnification large FOV.

High f# Planetary scope
Low f# DSO scope

Fork mount - tracking in two different planes generally have stepper motors
Gem - Tracking in a single plane generally have servo motors(somebody correct me if im wrong) that track smoothly

there are other things that you can do to convert from one to the other though from all that i have seen a entry level scope into photography in the dob/solid tube region will give you a good all rounder scope that can be used for visual/photography, without having to sell your family to fund the purchase.

SCT gives great results though is very expensive especially if your going in green. It could be to your detriment, and we all don't want to see that happen.

hope this helps a bit.

DENMONKEY (Brett) · #13 15-01-2009, 05:53 PM

Cheers Brendan.

The one I'm looking at has comes equipped with a polar wedge (removable) for alt/az movement.

Also the motors are worm gear not steppers.
Now still being new to this it seems these a smoother rate of movement.
That's what I've read anyway

I've managed to find a pic the same as the one I am looking at.
http://www.astromart.com/images/clas...9/602877-1.jpg

Minus the accesories shown in this pic obviously.
Has 2 eyepieces, 10*50 finderscops, hand control and adapter for my dslr.
from what I I understand its in the F11 range IIRC but a 'focal reducer' ?? can bring it down to f6.5 I believe. I think I can pick one of these up for around $130 but not 100% sure.
I've looked at so much info right now it's not funny

.

Anyway from that understanding will I be in good stead to at the very least manage some planet images etc until I spend on the focal reducer for DSOs etc.
In your opinion does this set up allow for the longer exposures required for a DSO image ?

I do like a bit of a challenge so don't mind spending the time to learn.
After all I believe that often things that prodive the most challenge can also be the most rewarding when finally mastered.

I'm by no means expecting mind blowing results out of the box as such but to get something that will require me to learn more than just the basics which I believe the DOB will provide.

The SCT will obviously require me to learn to align the scope correctly, learn about the motion of stellar objects and still give me some basic abilities to try imaging at it's most basic level.

I see the SCT as offering me the most of the items I have on my list that I want in a scope right now and for close enough to the money I want to spend.

Still the decision is yet to be confirmed 100% so of course I welcome any other opinions, even if it is just to tell me I'm being foolish.

Again thanks all for taking the time to reply.

I already owe you all a beer or 7.

bmitchell82 (Brendan) · #14 16-01-2009, 12:12 AM

that seems like a reasonable set up, i guess its upto the user at the end of the day and what it is that you want to do, achieve out of it all.

for astro photography there are many different forms and no one form beats the other, its more of a personal taste, and a taste that i cant quantify myself just yet, for me the allure of nebulae, planetary nebulae and galaxies are just too much to resist, hence the most light you can grab is the go, though when you want to ramp up the magnification and focal length (see x5 power mates and barlows) then you really do need a sct kinda scope.

the other things to think about are the effects of the physical equipment that you use.

sct's tend to make stars slighty bloated
refractors make them really sharp (no obstructions)
reflectors give defraction spikes (unless you go with a curved vane)

these are all just tiny things that happen. as for the mount im not a great fan of forks because i have had bad experiences with them. (see meade wobbletronic) but in saying that i havn't touched a celestron mount yet. Gems seem to be alot more sturdy.

the other reason why alot of people go with a newt is the shear bang for buck component. I wanted the most from my telescope equipment, aka a scope for every occasion. hence the eq6 and dob base i can drag it out within a few minutes and start observing,ooor i can take my time and set the girty up ready for goto mayhem. and then i can push the button and head off down the photography route, mean while the guide scope will be a fairly decent scope in itself something like a ed80, this would by my travel scope, say if i was to head back up nort to see my oldies thats what i could take, small portable and all it needs is a small eq3 or the like to drive it ( you know pretty much where everything is in the sky anyhow

.
Thats how i think about it, and it generally works for me as i take my friends and family out all the time. oh and my 5 year old boy really gets into it. he loves the moon

.

heres a photo that was taken via the afocal method theres no braces, straps or tripods holding this its just me with the camera held up to the eye piece.