What to buy?

[Lacey]

For a beginner please give me your thoughts on these two choices (saxon) I have come down to? I want to see both day landscapes and night skies, portable, easy set up, good to excellent clarity??? and under $400.00.



705AZ3

70mm aperture, 500mm focal length. Short-tube land and astronomical viewing telescope, 500mm multi-coated achromatic objective lens, f/7, AZ3 mount, 1.25" 45° erect image diagonal and 3X Barlow lens extremely good for terrestrial viewing, spotting-use, three 1.25" eyepieces give brighter and sharper image, 5x24 finderscope, good quality AZ3 alt-azimuth mount tripod.
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70mm aperture, 900mm focal length. Multi-coated achromatic 90mm objective lens, f/13, AZ3 mount, three 1.25" eyepieces give brighter and sharper image, 1.25" 45° erect image diagonal for terrestrial use, 5x24 finderscope, dew cap/sunshade & aluminum tripod. The telescope has 36% greater light gathering capacity than traditional beginner 60mm scope, long focal length allows high magnification (up to 675x),


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[asimov (John)]

For a beginner or a professional I would choose neither..both crap IMHO

[elusiver]

seriously asimov.. tell us what you really think??

from what i understand.. cause u'll probably need to go with a alt/az on a tripod setup u might find it hard finding something solid enough for reasonably stable astro use. For day time terrestrial the mount can bit abit more forgiving. As for the saxon scope.. do a search.. not alot of good said about them.


el

[acropolite (Phil)]

I would be inclined to go for the Orion 80ED which is only marginally larger and not that much more expensive.

[p medcraft]

Ok, here goes
The two choices are relatively similar although the shorter focal length and therefore wider field is probably a better option as it will provide a better comprimise between land and astro viewing. The 70mm F/13 with 90mm objective??. If that is correct it is most probably because the optics are poor in quality (poorer than the scope should have). To get around poor optics one method is to stop down the aperture (90mm to 70mm) to get rid of the worst of the aberations such as vignetting, usually by inserting a field stop inside the tube. The multiplication figures such as 675 times are something of a misnomer. An economy scope combined with atmospherics mean that the liklyhood of getting to that number is small and the viewing even if you could would be marginal at best. I have $13000.00 worth of F/11 scope and last weekend I could not get past 559x and even then the image was a mess. The number makes great advertising but its usefulness is limited to nil.
In my opinion a better alternative for your money would be to buy a decent pair of binoculars giving at least 80mm to each eye or better. I have attached a link to Andrews Communications
http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-co...section-11.htm
where you will see a range of binoculars including 100mm aperture with zoom eyepieces. do your numbers and you should be able to get a tripod to go with it. A little further research and you can build your own Parallelogram mount that enables easy deep sky observing. It is often overlooked but some very fine astro observing can be had with binoculars of 80mm or more. It probably isn't what you wanted to hear but the 70mm refractors on ALT/AZ mounts are really limited in what they can be used for astronomically. a combination of a long tube with narrow FOV means that objects are hard to center and even harder to keep there (assuming you can find them with a 5x24 finderscope). The flexure of the mount and tripod makes this problem even worse. I saw one of these scopes arrive at a dark sky night in Melbourne a couple of years ago and the owner couldn't center Saturn in the eyepiece. A couple of us went over to help and we couldn't do it either because as soon as you had it in the FOV and let go of everything the flexure moved it away.
OK, it probably sounds like aperture arrogance and I certainly don't intend it to but I have been where you are (my first was a 4" Tasco 11TR from Myers and I loved that scope to death) and would see you get the best for your money.
Recapping, first suggestion is Binoculars for that amount of money, second is that you go with a wide field short focal length refractor on an ALT/AZ mount.
Good luck and good hunting.

Paul Medcraft

[asimov (John)]

ok! I can do that! Let me elaborate on my blunt/brief/comment..

"when I was a wee lad........." j/jokin'

Seriously though...The 70mm diametre refractor on your list would be ok for terrestrial viewing, but no good for astronomy....too small man. The short focal length your going to get plenty of false colour. Really only a toy for astronomical use! (IMHO)

The 2nd one ....I dont like the 'false advertising' for starters (that's if you copied N pasted that info in here?) 70mm aperture & 90mm diameter?? That's rather confusing for a newbie! If it (IS?) a 90mm diametre scope, at F13....It's gonna be better for astronomical purpose's I guess.. RE: the 675X mag!!??
What can I say? That's rubbish!

I dunno....I think for 400 dollar's, there's better choice's out there.

What about a 4.5" to 6" reflector...with an image inverter for terrestrial viewing?

[TidaLpHasE]

I think the idea of a good set of binno's around your price range would be the best option.

I am also looking to buy a scope, and have a "want it now" attitude.

Even though my budget is alot more than yours, i am now thinking of getting myself a good pair of binnox, instead of spending lots of $$$$$ on a scope and gadgets that i won't know how to use, and avoid the frustration of my high expectations of zooming in on "one small step for man's" footprints on the lunar surface.

I hope the binno's will guide me through the sky and help me learn along with an atlas where things are.

Once i learn more about telescopes in general, and the various models and their specs, i will be better positioned to make a purchase that will give me the expectations that i am looking for.

If you must have a scope now, from my little knowledge, i would go for a dob.

Their price is within your budget, and there is plenty of members here to advise you on this scope.

Good luck with your choice

ps. What would be the better quality brands of binnox for astro viewing ?

[p medcraft]

On the subject of buying Bino's if you have a bigger budget I would not hesitate to grab the Oberwerk 100mm Bino's. They come with their own sturdy tripod, rotating barrel fitted with 24mm and 40mm erfles and backpack carry case. With the addition of a paralellogram or unimount to allow the binocs to go close to vertical you have a fantastic wide field veiwing platform that will gather attention at the next observing night for sure. I have had the opportunity to look through these from dark sky sites a few times and they are great. There is a lot to be said for using two eyes and getting as many photons into them as you can! Andrews have a cheaper clone of them called the Giant 25/40 x 100 SB and they charge $1500.00 for them. Worth every cent! A couple of years ago the Oberwerks sold for around $2500.00 to $3400.00.
If you would like a history lesson they started life as Chinese military field binoculars hence the backpack carry case.

[asimov (John)]

The 80 ED ....Now that would be a top choice.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

I see that some of the responses so far have been less than helpful.

OK, let's see, a starter scope for under $400.

For maximum aperture per $: 200mm Dobsonian from Andrews. Good general purpose scope; great on planets, many deep sky objects within reach. Will need ongoing maintenance (collimation); needs to cool down before observing when temperature difference between storage and outside > 5 degrees. Will fit across the back seat of a small car, but not in the boot.

For planets: 80-90mm achromat. Better contrast than the reflector; great for planets, open clusters, some of the brighter DSOs; maintenance free (provided you don't drop it!); grab and go, no or almost no cooldown time. Not enough aperture for fainter deep sky objects. Shorter focal length refractors will have worse chromatic abberation (all else being equal), so you'll probably want to go for longer FL. More compact than the Dob; will fit in boot.

For breathtaking wide views of the Milky way: 20x80 binoculars and a sturdy tripod. Can't really go wrong with these, but you are limited to 20x magnification, which is not enough to see detail on the planets. (BTW, Mars, Saturn & Jupiter are the only planets where you can see detail on the surface with any Earth-bound scope.)

Either which way you go, you'll have heaps to look at. Just keep in mind that most places that sell telescopes overcharge for them, and for $400 you are likely to end up with a piece of junk if you don't spend your money wisely. You'll get great value from Andrews on Dobs and binos, and from AOE on refractors and binos.

Another couple of points:

I believe the AZ3 mounts with the slow motion controls are quite good and convenient for smaller refractors. The AZ1 and AZ2 mounts are shockers. Stay away from these. EQ mounts can be awkward to use and the inexpensive ones will almost certainly be less sturdy than the simple Dob base, but being able to track with one slow motion knob is very nice when viewing planets at high magnification.

It is not true that small refractors are no good for astronomy, Things like details on the Moon, banding on Jupiter, Saturn's rings, as well as the moons of the gas giants are all clearly visible with my old 60mm refractor. Ditto open clusters and brighter globulars.

Good luck and stay in touch!

[ving (David)]

if you want a refractor on a budget try andrewscom.com.au and looka t the skywatcher 80x400. wont be great for planets (well not close anyway) but you shoud be able to get some good widefield shots.... but the 8" dob from the same place will let you see more but it weighs a bit tho and isnt as easy to lug around. that said tho, my 8" dob fits in my astra well enuff.

[dhumpie]

Hi Lacey,

For under $400 dollars your best bet is a 6" f/8 dobsonian from Andrew's Communications. They currently go for $299 (add an extra $40-$50 for road freight). You might even have extra money for a good pair of binoculars for starhopping (and that daytime views you want and maybe a good book....). Remember with astronomy what you want is light gathering and not magnification.....

Darren

http://www.andrewscom.com.au/site-section-10.htm

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Originally Posted by janoskiss

For breathtaking wide views of the Milky way: 20x80 binoculars and a sturdy tripod. Can't really go wrong with these, ...

Yes you can! My 20x80s arrived last week and for the first time since we had some clear skies here in Melbourne (for a couple of hours), and I finally got to try them out under the night sky. They are terrible!! Badly out of collimation with extreme chromatic aberrations. Cannot get Jupiter to focus to a disk. Just a blur of colours.

I suspect that with the cheap Chinese gear, the dealer can make a lot of difference. Maybe try AOE if you want cheap large binos. They claim to inspect each one for collimation...

[RAJAH235]

Have a quick look in here if you can......
http://www.oberwerk.com/products/default.htm
http://www.binocularschina.com/
Good luck. L.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Yes, Laurie, I've seen those site; they're the type of binos I got (the 20x80 triplets), and they are pretty bad. I'm going to be sending them back.

[RAJAH235]

But they look so good, Steve! Good luck. L.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

They look good but they don't LOOK good

Ha ha, get it? They look good but they don't . . . ahh forget it. If it needs explanation it ain't funny!

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

It seems I got really unlucky and got a really badly made/repaired one. I took them out for another look tonight just to double check that I'm not blind. Yes it looks just as bad on streetlights and the city lights 20km away. Then it's gone from bad to worse. Then the plastic dew shield broke off as I was peeling the dustcap off one objective. I wasn't forceful or anything just two fingers! Underneath, the plastic looks really rough like someone had a go at it with a kitchen knife. Same is true for the plastic retainer ring that holds the front lens in. I hope Andrews is going to do the right thing and give me a refund.

[ballaratdragons (Ken)]

Steve,

I hope he doesn't think you did the scratches etc. Good luck with it.

[fringe_dweller]

Steve, sorry to hear of your experience! but cheap large aperture binos should still be ok under very dark skies, even out of collimation/alignment? (especially on a $400+ sturdy tripod). i have a pair of the cheap 25x100 chinese Kumnings binos - and under dark skies they are pretty impressive - but in town you have to ask why bother - their sort of like two dififferent sets of binos depending on your location! I got them for bright comets exclusively. Good quality average size binos and cheap and better large aperture binos do a better job on bright comets than my handmade 10" newt would ever do, for me. low power/wide field/max contrast is far more important (visually) with these objects.
Planets and most things are laughable with these bino's of mine too - the massive green halo of CA on the full moon nearly made me fall over the first time i saw it (weird view of the full moon! looks like a soviet 50's era black and white moon image - trippy contrast!) - but go for a drive through the milky way - thru carina. SMC ect. from a very dark sky site, well its a pretty nice and different ride! Not worth getting for that view just tho, IMHO.
I thought i saw a good writeup on, and plug for, those 20x80 binos just recently in this forum from someone who was quite happy with them?. maybe they live under dark skies?
I admit if it wasnt for my strong main interest in bright comets I would never of bought them.
Eye relief is terrible, focusers stiff and awkward, the FOV is a lot less than they claim in advertising, bad at the edges ect., but i like the way these modern large binos that are braced near the front objectives and along the length (they nevr used to do that very often if at all in the past?) - should save on very worst of alignment troubles that you can get with big binos? and you get to balance them better on a tripod via sliding lockin connector on the central bar, being able to shift weight back by going further forward with fulcrum, and therefore not have to strip the lockdowns on the tripod head with over tightening.
When you say they are out of collimation - do you mean because stars won't come to focus? Are the stars/streetlights a diamond/triangular shape? or are they normal pinpoint star shaped? sorry for all the questions
But large aperture binos new for ~$250 is always going to be tricky maybe?
Kearn