Webb Society Deep Sky Observers' Handbooks Vol 1 to 7 (complete set) NOW AVAILABLE

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

There is a complete set of the Webb Society Deep Sky Observers Handbooks currently up for auction on Astromart. The Auction has 2 days to run. Link below

http://www.astromart.com/auctions/li...category_id=15

This collection was published in the late 1970's early 1980's. These books have been out of publication for many years and are exceedingly difficult to find in Australia, moreso as a compete set. They are available as individual volumes in USA, but again rarely as a complete set. I have the full set. It is an excellent reference for an intermediate level astronomer.

I highly recommend someone snap these up. It is likely they will go for less than $10 each, more likely less than $5 each.

Cheers,
John B

[Rodstar (Rod)]

I have a set too, and I cannot recommend them highly enough.

I found five of the set at a second bookstore in Byron Bay, and two were secured courtesy of John, via some kind overseas contacts.

What I particularly like about them is that they contain the observing notes and drawings of (mainly) amateurs of many objects through different apertures. It is quite an education to see what others see and observe, and can inspire you to look more carefully at objects you might otherwise just venture a glance at.

Some of the introductory notes are a tad dated, but they still contain lots of gems of information worth learning.

[astroron (Ron)]

I have been a Webb Society member for a few years now and use volumes 5 and 6, but the other volumes are out of print and the society has non left of the others.
I wish they were for sale over here

[AJames]

I had all these for a while, and find only Vol 1 "Double Stars" (Edition 2) quite useful, while the rest is frankly very disappointing. I do, however, on very rare occasions read Vol. 2 "Planetary and Gaseous Nebulae".

I purchased some of the latter copies through Jenni Kay in South Australia (See Note below in 2004). The earlier ones I obtained a few decades ago, when I was a member of the Webb Society, but dropped out because of the the considerable very "northern-centric" bias - being not worth the money in fees and postage - and a feeling that I might as well live on the Moon regarding southern observations. The Journal was a good read though - even as 95% objects being north of the equator.

The southern sky version, Vol.7, written in 1987 is probably the worst of all of them - seemingly written solely for northern observers peering into the southern skies. Ie. pg. 159 the grotesque chapter entitled "Travelling with a Telescope".

Some Sample Problems With Vol. 7
- The errors in the chapter entitled "Historical Review" contains so many errors and omissions one does not know where to begin.
- Most objects only observed by large apertures or binoculars.
- Errors like describing the planetary nebulae : NGC 5189 as a diffuse nebula and in a 6-inch as "diamond shaped", where it is clearly "S"-shaped!.
(This is made worst by the fact that Steven Hynes was the editor, and he wrote the Willimann-Bell handbook on Planetary Nebulae of 1991.
- Worst, only one planetary nebulae below -50 deg south.
-Only NGC 3918 is presented described merely as "Bright and easy. Very small and slightly oblate. Blue." (Even the wiki article is just as bad Ie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGC_3918.) Its 8.4v magnitude for heavens sake!
- Worst even one of the brightest in the southern skies - the Chameleon planetary NGC 3195 - isn't even mentioned!
(See wiki article; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGC_3195 , which I recently had to edit.
- Many of the best southern open clusters are missing or described (seemingly deliberately) only as mediocre - often only with small apertures or binoculars!
- Compared with the northern object compilations in other volumes, clearly incomplete.

Sorry. Not at all worthwhile at all, even for $5 piece!

Once I read this, I became a dedicated southern observer who couldn't care less about anything north of -30 degrees declination, and even then prefer south of -45 degrees declination.

Recommend that it is better to read Hartung instead.

Note; if you wish to purchase some of the Webb Society publications, these can be obtained through Jenni Kay, through the catalogue download at; http://www.webbdeepsky.com/wperiodical/aus.pdf
This also says volumes 5, 6, 7 and 8 have some copies available at $9 apiece or two for $15.

[Rodstar (Rod)]

Given that the Webb Society is UK based, I take for granted that it will have a strongly northern hemisphere-oriented focus. Sadly few have taken up the challenge in the south, which may help explain some errors and omissions in southern objects. I am sure with more southern contributers, the Webb Society would be able to produce lots more useful material on southern skies, and even perhaps update their 7th volume.

I know Richard Jaworski (ASNSW) has tirelessly contributed to their data on double stars, and that Jenni Kay has written material on the Magellanic Clouds in recent years.

In my experience, few observers go beyond casually glancing at the objects they observe. The Webb Society handbooks address this, gently encouraging deeper observational skills. I cannot speak highly enough of the benefits of the handbooks in this regard, notwithstanding any apparent shortcomings identified.

[AJames]

Originally Posted by Rodstar

I am sure with more southern contributers, the Webb Society would be able to produce lots more useful material on southern skies, and even perhaps update their 7th volume.

Rodstar,

You are correct here. The reason the 7th volume fails in that the Webb Society was relying on contributions from southern observers. I can recall when they were asking for contributions to the volume in the early to mid-1980's. Sadly, the book found few southern contributors - mainly as southerners had begun to view the southern skies as the own.
IMO, in essence, this 7th Volume reminds me more "travel brochure" than general tome on the southern skies. In truth, the field drawings are probably the most valuable, but a few of these also contain some errors.
Frankly, I don't understand why southern observers would want to contribute to northern-centric Society. After all, deep-sky southern observers are actually observing and imaging this part of the sky. For the northerners - other than travelling south of the equator - the material is just reading material.
In actuality, why can't we produce our own material for ourselves instead of creating others who don't really relate directly to regular observations of the southern skies?

Andrew

Note: A similar problem exists for the 2004 book by Mike Inglis "Astronomy of the Milky Way : Observer’s Guide to the Southern Sky" (under the Patrick Moore’s Practical Astronomy Series), which has many oddities through its text. At least it gives a more realistic picture of the southern skies.

[astroron (Ron)]

In actuality, why can't we produce our own material for ourselves instead of creating others who don't really relate directly to regular observations of the southern skY

The Deep Sky Observer and other publications of the Webb Society now and in the past have had lots of Southern Hemisphere observations in them over the years.
Also doesn't Hartungs do exactley what you mention in the above quote.
Have you written in or published any Southern hemisphere books or mags?.
I for one enjoy the Webb society and look forward to my quarterly journal
Ron

[AJames]

Originally Posted by astroron

In actuality, why can't we produce our own material for ourselves instead of creating others who don't really relate directly to regular observations of the southern sky?
The Deep Sky Observer and other publications of the Webb Society now and in the past have had lots of Southern Hemisphere observations in them over the years.
Also doesn't Hartungs do exactly what you mention in the above quote.
Have you written in or published any Southern hemisphere books or mags?.
I for one enjoy the Webb society and look forward to my quarterly journal
Ron

Ron,
You raise some interesting points. Certainly, I agree that the Deep Sky Observer (DSO) and the other publications of the Webb Society as a whole are excellent. I have some early copies of most of them, and have used some of them as references while developing my own written text. In fact, I have had actually published in the DSO a couple of articles on southern constellations and objects, and was even involved in the double star section. In fact, I can say I have even gained a little bit from the Webb Society.
The Webb Society certainly has contributed greatly to the amateur astronomers cause, and the articles they produce on the whole are professional, relevant and innovative.
Since their beginnings, they have built up a decent base of international observers - on both deep-sky and double stars - many of whom I have and still correspond with.

However, the issue I'm raising here is more to do with the information provided on our southern skies - an especially towards Volume 7 - that is the gust of the title of this thread.

IMO, I would not recommend this Southern volume to new observers as it does not properly cover the skies in this part of the world.

This was the advice originally asked for by John B.

To your reply, the reason I think that the knowledge of the southern sky is grossly neglected is because the southern community is so deeply divided - being split and fragmented into many different Societies and groups - especially within Australia - who rarely combine together, or have the opportunity too, working towards some common cause or goal.

(Oddly the communities of New Zealand, South Africa and lately South America have all woken up to the idea of of becoming independent antipodean observers not being held in the yoke of their northern cousins.)

My specific example of what sort of things that can be achieved is the Astronomical Society of South Africa, who have many experienced observers that are producing useful observations. See http://www.assabfn.co.za/deepsky.htm
(and also http://assa.saao.ac.za/html/32_deepsky.html )
Observers, like Auke Slotegraaf, are starting to produce a useful Deep-sky observing database of bright southern objects.

Ie. http://www.psychohistorian.org/astro...-ngc-2808.html
or
http://www.psychohistorian.org/astro...-ford-20070414

Compare this with the various southern hemisphere observations produced by the Webb Society.

For observational information for southern observers, download his "Deep-Sky Observer's Companion" at;
http://www.assabfn.co.za/activities/...anion_assa.pdf

Only imagine for a moment if this level of sophistication by number of very talented and brilliant southern observers and images would achieve if only if they would co-operate like this in, say, throughout Australia?

Why should their works be fragmented like"plucking a chicken", and place here and there instead of making the local community so much stronger through their own works?

Yet there is one point I can't disagree. If you "...enjoy the Webb Society and look forward to my quarterly journal.", then you must be getting something out of it. Clearly learning and understanding observational techniques is universal to all amateurs - and the quality of the Webb Society in this regards has got it in spades.

Regards,
Andrew

Comment: While you have also challenged me as to what have I published. Sadly most of what I've put out has had to be made beyond Australian shores - mainly as there is nowhere to publish papers except in local amateur journals or try their luck with the professional journals. This is the exact same reason why intermediate amateurs have to exported their works in groups like the Webb Society - and this is the core of my point. It is a pity most of our local astronomers never get to see these works - unless you join the Society itself - the "carrot" so to speak. Actually, I do have one or two projects that I've been working on for a few years now, one nearing its end. (The details of which will be presented as a paper at the upcoming 23rd NACAA in Penrith during Easter 2008. This will be my 7th paper presented to a NACAA in the last few decades.)

Personal Note: Well another truth, away from the questions here, is I am an amateur astronomer who has become slightly embittered over several decades about the total lack of co-operation among his fellow visually observing amateurs. (Some once accused me of turning to the "dark side" for doing this - which for an amateur is surely a decent complement!
I have taken my own interests in other directions, away from bureaucracies of the amateur scene - much of which I see as often the blatant commercialisation by my other fellow amateurs - selling out for financial advantage or some semblance of fame or even notoriety.
I soon learnt from my own experiences that you might as well do what you want instead of bashing your head against the weight of the formal establishments. This is in fact why I have produced on the net the "Southern Astronomical Delights" pages;
( http://homepage.mac.com/andjames/index.htm ) .
Best of all this work is my own, and although I might have many faults and may not be the best writer in the world, but I am answerable to no one. Besides, it is also free to anyone who wants to read it!

Quote:
"The average man has a carefully cultivated ignorance about household matters - from what to do with the crumbs to the grocer's telephone number - a sort of cheerful inefficiency which protects him." Crystal Eastman

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by AJames

Ron,

IMO, I would not recommend this Southern volume to new observers as it does not properly cover the skies in this part of the world.

This was the advice originally asked for by John B.

Hi Andrew,

Did you not notice I indicated in my post this was a RARE OPPORTUNITY to aquire the COMPLETE SET

This is the sole reason I pointed this set out. I also pointed out that it was a good collection for an INTERMEDIATE Observer. I would put you slightly beyond intermediate level.

Just curious how many years ago you threw your previously owned volume 7 into the rubbish bin, or gave it away, thus breaking your set up? Clearly, you have no need for volume 7 and must have disposed of it. I don't use Volume 7 either, but I hang onto it to keep my set COMPLETE

May I also point out that in the bookcase full of Astronomy books I own. I don't own one that doesn't contain an error of some description. The book you recommend, Hartung's, while a tremendous book, contains a couple of glaring errors. Most noteable, his omission of X Velorum, in Vela. One of the best double stars in the entire sky IMO, which is visible naked eye, able to be split in my 16 x 60 binoculars, yet unable to be seen by Hartung in his 12" reflector. He must have left his sunnies on the night he covered Vela

Originally Posted by AJames

I might have many faults and may not be the best writer in the world

People skills being a major one ?

Cheers,
John B

[AJames]

Originally Posted by ausastronomer

Hi Andrew,

Did you not notice I indicated in my post this was a RARE OPPORTUNITY to aquire the COMPLETE SET

This is the sole reason I pointed this set out. I also pointed out that it was a good collection for an INTERMEDIATE Observer. I would put you slightly beyond intermediate level.

John B,
You are quire correct in this regard. I have misread your original post. Many apologies.
It is certainly worthwhile having a complete set, as I also do.

Andrew

[AJames]

Originally Posted by ausastronomer

May I also point out that in the bookcase full of Astronomy books I own. I don't own one that doesn't contain an error of some description. The book you recommend, Hartung's, while a tremendous book, contains a couple of glaring errors. Most noteable, his omission of X Velorum, in Vela. One of the best double stars in the entire sky IMO, which is visible naked eye, able to be split in my 16 x 60 binoculars, yet unable to be seen by Hartung in his 12" reflector. He must have left his sunnies on the night he covered Vela

Very curious that you quote the double star x Velorum / DUN 95, which is one of the most brilliant in the sky. It is one of my personal favourites as well, and I have written about this colourful system on several occasions - including having coining Alberio Australis - mainly just to get the northerners attention to another great colour contrasting pair.
Hartung left it off his list because it is a very wide system ~51.9 arcsec, and like many of the pairs he mentions, the majority are less than 20 arcsec. This follows from R.T.A. Innes 1899 catalogue, which has a similar limitation. Although I cannot be proven, much of the information on the changes he describes in double stars of these pair used Innes and the Index of Double Stars of 1963. Hartung Edition 2, is very similar to the original in this regard. (The reason is probably the system is likely not a binary star, whose probability of being attached is fairly small.

Whether this is a glaring error or not is debatable, especially as it was written in 1968 and there in nothing else like it for the time.

As to errors, yes, nearly ALL references do have a few mistakes and omissions. Even my own text generally have various mistakes - often from missing information, newly available data, or having interpreting things just wrongly. I really try hard to avoid it. I too have been heavily criticised over the years for some of my own words.

As to the huge number of errors in Volume 7.... well I've already made my point.

Thanks for your honest appraisal,

Regards,
Andrew

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

Originally Posted by AJames

I have written about this colourful system on several occasions - including having coining Alberio Australis - mainly just to get the northerners attention to another great colour contrasting pair.

I actually made mention of this when I wrote the notes on this target, as part of the "Monthly Observing Challenge" for this website in May, 2005.


*********************************** ***********************************
Multiple Star - X Velorum (Dunlop 95)
Const.: Vela
Type: Multiple Star
Visual Mag: 4.3
RA: 10h 39.3m
DEC: -55°36'
Diameter: n/a
Distance: 906ly

x Velorum is one of the most aesthetically pleasing multiple stars in the entire sky. Andrew James from the ASNSW has nicknamed it Albireo Australis after its visual resemblance to the famous northern hemisphere double, Albireo (B Cygni).

x Velorum is in fact a triple star, the brighter AB components (mag 4.4/6.0, sep 51.7”, pa 105 deg), are also known as Dunlop 95. The third member of the trio is found 20.1” from the B component at pa 174 deg and is mag 12.1. This system is known as HJ 4341 BC (Herschel). The C component is more difficult to spot in smaller scopes than the two main components, which can be separated in larger binoculars. x Velorum presents a wonderful target in any sized telescope at low to medium powers. The two main components provide a brilliant colour contrast double of electric blue and a deep gold, with the colour contrast enhanced by the brightness of both stars. This wonderful target is not listed as a target of note in much of the literature, including Hartung’s Astronomical Objects for Southern Telescopes (Burnham’s Celestial Handbook does include it, albeit as a listing only). In the Hipparcos Catalogue it is listed as HIP 52154 and in the Tycho Catalog as TYC8605-1196-1

The proper motion of the trio indicates them to be a long period related system. A wonderful target to be returned to time and again.
*********************************** ***********************************

Cheers,
John B