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Old 23-11-2007, 07:40 PM
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iceman (Mike)
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Exclamation Policy re Criticism of Vendors on IceInSpace Forum

All,

Due to a few recent incidents, it has been necessary to implement a new policy regarding criticism of vendors on IceInSpace. The policy is outlined below, and will be added to the IceInSpace Terms of Service in the next few days when I get more time.

-------------------------
Disputes regarding vendors and service regarding their products should be addressed elsewhere, and not on the IceInSpace forum.

We very much want to encourage people in the pursuit of their love of astronomy. We do not want IceInSpace inadvertently to become a platform for individuals to air their personal grievances. In this regard, it is unfair that the hosts and moderators of the forum should be brought into disputes that have nothing to do with them as individuals, and we have therefore decided that we would rather stand well clear of such debates, and focus instead on the positive aspects of amateur astronomy.

We trust our members will understand that we are not attempting to restrict freedom of expression in taking this position, but rather to provide as positive a contribution as we can to the development of amateur astronomy in Australasia.

If a member has a concern about a vendor or their product, they are encouraged to contact that vendor directly to address their concerns and seek resolution with the party concerned. They are also, of course, always free to discuss their grievances with their friends and family at any other time.

As a result, if anyone initiates a thread or posts a comment critical of a vendor, the moderators have been instructed to lock and/or delete same. Such action does not reflect any opinion on the part of the hosts or moderators regarding the contents of such threads or posts. We trust that members will understand when we have to make a judgment call when things are perhaps marginal, and that no offence will be taken when such action is taken.

If a member is unsure whether a thread or post they are considering making is in breach of this policy, it is probably best to err on the side of not posting. A moderator can always be consulted if you would like any more guidance on this issue.

If a vendor or member is concerned by the contents of a thread, they are encouraged to contact one of the moderators as soon as possible (use the red X "report bad post" button) so that appropriate action can be taken in accordance with this policy.
-------------------------

I appreciate your understanding.
  #2  
Old 23-11-2007, 07:54 PM
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jjjnettie (Jeanette)
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Good onya Mike.
  #3  
Old 23-11-2007, 08:00 PM
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Yep I agree 100% Mike

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  #4  
Old 23-11-2007, 08:01 PM
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Kal (Andrew)
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I understand Mike, and to be honest, I don't see this as a bad thing. A few years ago another Australian forum that I'm a long time member of (OCAU) shut down for a couple of months after a vendor initiated legal action against the forum owner after a member posted a poor vendor verdict. When the forums came back it was without vendor verdict in order to protect itself from similar incidents.

I would hate to see IIS forced to be taken down due to legal action, hence I support this decision.
  #5  
Old 23-11-2007, 08:53 PM
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Not that I don't understand the reasoning for this, but where will the balance be? Plenty of posts about the good instances of service, but none about when things go wrong?

Can you say, "don't buy from X, as I have found Y to be of better service?".

I am constantly amazed that we are becoming as litigious as our US cousins. Where is the Australian ethos of telling it how it is?

I'm not arguing against this policy, I totally understand the need for it to be here based on recent events, but can't help thinking that you're putting yourself in a harder position by continually attempting to moderate/regulate content.

Turbo
  #6  
Old 23-11-2007, 09:10 PM
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I agree with Turbo. I'm not aware of the incedent which prompted this action (please point me to it so I can make my own judgement), but I do believe that everyone should be able to state their position.

I personally take a lot of advice from members on this forum. If those members are going to be restricted in what they can say then, really, what is the use of the forum. I have often asked for advice on what to buy & the best place to buy it.

If this is the position the moderators are taking, then I think that ANY discussion regarding vendors should be removed. If this is being done to protect the moderators from possible litigation (which I don't blame them for) from vendors who don't like any bad publicity, then I think there should be NO publicity / discussion at all regarding vendors. Good or bad.

It needs to be a level playing field. The vendors can't have it both ways.

Bryan
  #7  
Old 23-11-2007, 09:23 PM
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If we want IceInSpace to continue to benefit amateur astronomers and general public alike then whatever changes are necessary i'm all for it!



  #8  
Old 23-11-2007, 09:33 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Vendor "bashing", as such, is unwarranted, terrible and uncalled-for - but I suppose it's all a matter of degree. Where do you draw the line between "attack" and "complaint"? This is a DISCUSSION forum - a place where people come to discuss their hobby and its supporting products. It can't all be "nice" I don't think - as much as everyone would just love it to be. I have to say that discussion revolves around a pivotal argument - which has both an affirmative and negative side to it. In not being "allowed" to air a negative thought, are we constricting the very nature of a forum? I believe so. There needs to be a way to say what you need to but in a moderated fashion, for which we have just such people to keep it fair. Guys - you can't run a forum and only ever see positive opinions on vendors because I think you are removing the very reason why people use these forums - to empower their decision making processes. Keep it fair, yes - but please don't stifle it. If you want to run a forum you have to expect disagreement and dissent from time to time. Keep it under control and you'll be doing everyone who comes here a great service. Again - it's all a matter of degree, and that degree must be dynamically monitored per post - again, that's why there are helpers called moderators.

I understand the plausible threat of legality, but if a complaint against a vendor (who earn their very living by me and you spending our hard-earned with them) is legitimate and can be supported without making false claims then it should be able to be heard. This forum should, in my opinion attempt to protect its users from unscrupulous vendors if they prove to be that. If the complaint is not justifed then it must be either withdrawn or apologised for. It's a difficult thing to manage, but I sincerely think that you have to provide this service if this forum is to be of use to the target audience. You can't have the good without the occasional bad. If I can't come here to hear an opinion on the performance of a product or the people selling that product, then all it becomes is a less effective place to visit.

Quote:
discussion
c.1340, from O.Fr. discussion, from L.L. discussionem "examination, discussion," in classical L., "a shaking," from discussus, pp. of discutere "strike asunder, break up," from dis- "apart" + quatere "to shake." Originally "examination, investigation, judicial trial;" meaning of "talk over, debate" first recorded 1448. Sense evolution in L. appears to have been from "smash apart" to "scatter, disperse," then in post-classical times (via the mental process involved) to "investigate, examine," then to "debate."
Here I go - rocking the boat again. The very real need for advertising revenue here could sometimes negate the impartiality aspect I suspect. It's a very hard balancing act, but one you've chosen to partake in.

On the flip side - I am yet to think of a complaint about ANY vendor usually mentioned here on the forum that I've dealt with. They've all been exceptionally good in comparison to some I've dealt with in other industry circles.

Last edited by Omaroo; 23-11-2007 at 11:19 PM.
  #9  
Old 23-11-2007, 09:52 PM
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This is gonna be a hot one!
  #10  
Old 23-11-2007, 10:01 PM
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I'd prefer to see a new sub-forum, where grieved punters and vendors duke it out while we the jury watch
The vendors are far too precious now - some wouldn't get slammed if they gave good service, answered emails, sent things promptly etc.

I'll play by whatever rules are set, but hope we don't end up as militant as cloudynights are at times....
  #11  
Old 23-11-2007, 10:10 PM
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spacezebra (Petra)
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Hi Mike

All I can say is allow healthy debate "good or bad". Maybe people airing issues about a paricular vendor in a forum atmosphere, should also be prepared to state that they have followed the issue up with the vendor directly.

And equally so a Vendor should be given the opportunity to rebuttle a comment or concern.

Just a few thoughts.

Cheers Petra
  #12  
Old 23-11-2007, 10:27 PM
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citivolus (Ric)
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I doubt that a thread is likely to be locked at the merest mention of "I had a bad experience with that shop one time", but a thread which is started with the express intention of bashing a vendor is not likely to live for very long. The policy is there to protect the forum, not to dominate it.

There have been a few threads in specific in the last two months that I think that this policy is aimed at. Those threads did not serve a real use to the community, nor did they leave anyone with a good taste in their mouth. They were approached poorly, with the intent of using the forum as a platform to gain leverage against the entity in question. That type of posting has no place on a public forum, in my personal opinion. There are government sanctioned channels for handling that type of thing.

Eric
  #13  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:01 PM
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I fully understand your position Mike and will abide with the umpires decision as they say.

On the other hand if vendors are not doing the right thing by their customers and getting away with it without fear of being found out, how many other customers will be burned as well.

Constructive criticism is a good thing, derogatory comments are not.

Cheers
  #14  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:25 PM
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GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)
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somebody once said to me

"if you can't say something good about a person - don't say anything at all"

words of wisdom me thinks

geoff
  #15  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Omaroo View Post
This is a DISCUSSION forum - a place where people come to discuss their hobby and its supporting products.
I agree completely, but people need to understand that lawyers will consider this forum a privately owned business with a Michael A Salway as the owner, hence he is legally responsible for every post on this forum.

Also, Australia does not have freedom of speech written in it's constitution, unlike the United States of America.
  #16  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:29 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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LOL! .. with all due respect Geoff - you're a vendor! (One of the better ones, I might add! )

Last edited by Omaroo; 23-11-2007 at 11:39 PM.
  #17  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:35 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
I agree completely, but people need to understand that lawyers will consider this forum a privately owned business with a Michael A Salway as the owner, hence he is legally responsible for every post on this forum.
Yes, it is. Going into business (which is what this venture is in the eyes of the law) is a tricky thing - it becomes a balance between usefulness and self-protection. I used to host and run forums myself, and got out ages ago because of the very reasons discussed in this post so far. It's a real PITA to host a public meeting place these days - so my hat off to you Mike.

One thing - I believe that it's a common misconception to believe Australia is becoming as litigious as the USA - we've now far exceeded them at this practice.
  #18  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:39 PM
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GTB_an_Owl (Geoff)
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yes i was going to add that

but that would have started me off on a rant about people who don't resolve their problems with the vendor's directly - open their mouths and put in jeopardy all those nice astro goodies we all expect to win at our star parties

geoff
  #19  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:44 PM
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Omaroo (Chris Malikoff)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB_an_Owl View Post
yes i was going to add that

but that would have started me off on a rant about people who don't resolve their problems with the vendor's directly - open their mouths and put in jeopardy all those nice astro goodies we all expect to win at our star parties

geoff
Just having a crack Geoff

You're so right though. People SHOULD do it off air - except for when they legitimately feel that they've been summarily ignored by a vendor and need the advice of fellow users to be able to judge their next actions by. Rare cases one would hope, and certainly open to severe moderation.
  #20  
Old 23-11-2007, 11:56 PM
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I'm sorry, but i think this is a bad policy. What is the point of having moderators, let them do their job and if things start to get out of hand then by all means attempt to moderate.

Again i am sorry, but i believe in free speech and the right of every individual to tell the truth as they see it.

I think it is very unfortunate that a few badly moderated threads, which i must admit i never saw (but they must have been bad to result in this) have caused this new policy.

I still think it is a great forum and am not having a go at anyone in particular, i am just stating my opinion and my sadness that it has all come to this.

Regards Paul
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