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Old 28-06-2005, 06:05 PM
BC
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F Ratios ??

Some of you may have noticed that after my ponderings, I ended up with a 10" Bintel Premium dob which is still sitting faithfully in its box until 31st July, (birthday time) UNBELIEVABLE RESTRAINT, but it's ungratious to push for your own present....

Anyway, in the mean time I'm here pondering about stuff. Can anyone shed any light on the F ratio thing. My scope is 1250mm focal length and f/5. If a scope was 1250mm focal length and half the diameter it would be f/10, and suddenly really good for planets. So how come letting in a quarter of the light transforms this into a good planet viewer? And so then, if I cut a 5" hole in the end dust cover (theoretical here), why wouldn't it be equivalent to an f/10. I'm quite sure it isn't, but just pondering the theory.

PS After months of clear skies and a drought down here near Canberra, the day we bought the telescope it rained 35mm and hasn't really been clear since. But I fooled them......it's still in the box..ha ha...he he aaaAAARRRH
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Old 28-06-2005, 06:19 PM
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Starkler (Geoff)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC
If a scope was 1250mm focal length and half the diameter it would be f/10, and suddenly really good for planets. So how come letting in a quarter of the light transforms this into a good planet viewer?
There is nothing to say that a well made f5 is any less capable of good planetary performance than a scope at f10.
There are two factors at play here.

1: It is much easier to manufacture quality optics at f10 than at f5.

2: The f10 will have a much larger "diffraction limited" field of view. If the subject is kept in the centre of the FOV this isnt an issue.

You wont gain anything by masking the scope down. You arent improving the figure of the optics and are throwing away resolving power. To mask down a 10 inch GS scope enough to remove the spider and secondary holder from the light path, you are down to about 90mm aperture .
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Old 28-06-2005, 06:27 PM
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atalas
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BC Geoff has said It perfectly, If you have a good mirror on yours (which is very likely)
and you have perfect collimation your planetary views will be stunning on a good night!


Louie

Last edited by atalas; 28-06-2005 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 29-06-2005, 07:13 AM
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iceman (Mike)
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It depends whether you're just talking about focal ratio, or focal length as well. The 10" SCT's for example, they are f/10 but with a focal length of 2500mm. They are double the magnification of your f/5 dob, which some would argue makes them better for planets. At f/10, they are also more forgiving on eyepiece design and are good for planetary/lunar imaging because of that longer focal length.

The f/5 dob's are great for widefield DSO or lunar viewing, because of the shorter focal length compared to the 10" SCT's.

If you're just talking about focal ratio for teh same scope, there are arguments that masking down the scope can help in poor seeing, but you're also throwing away resolving power. The f/6 8" dob's are slightly more forgiving on collimation and eyepiece design, but not significantly and collimation is collimation - you need to learn to get it right whether you've got an f/5 or an f/6.

btw i'm impressed at your restraint! You could argue to your wife though, that you won't *use* it as such, but while waiting until the 31st July you can do a bunch of mods to the scope - flocking, fix the base motion, etc
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Old 29-06-2005, 09:07 AM
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rmcpb (Rob)
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One other reason that a long focal length is good on planets is that magnification rules here and you can get high magnifications from larger eyepieces with the associated long eye relief.

Cheers
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Old 29-06-2005, 09:11 AM
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mch62 (Mark)
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The practice of stepping the aperture down serves when the atmospheric turbulence renders a large aperture incompatible for the nights viewing.
It has to do with the air cells in the atmosphere that are floating around and the size of them, but not getting to technical , stepping down on such nights can increase the quality of the image although at the expense of the resolution of the full aperture.
So it counteracts itself.
Also removes spider diffraction spikes as well , not a major concern and reduces glare on the moon, plus reduces the coma effect of the main mirror. Fast newtonians need to have the planet kept in the center of the FOV or increasing coma towards the edge reduces contrast.Longer FR's in a newtonian reduce coma and gives a larger FOV free of coma.

This is why some purist planetary observers state that smaller unobstructed refractors of 6-8" are all that is required.
I don't fully agree with this , but looking through an unobstructed larger high quality refractor is some thing to be seen ones self.

A well, designed , dedicated high optical quality Newtonian can compare quite well to a HQ refractor for high resolution work at a fraction of the cost.

I doubt you will get a 5" mask with a 10" Newtonian but assume this is just an example.The hole needs to be between the secondary and the outer circumfrence of the mirror in size.
So 254mm less the secondary size devided by 2 will give the maximum hole size but go a little under this due to turned down edges ect of the main mirror.

With a Newtonian if the native focal ratio of the mirror (not stepping down) is increased a smaller secondary can be used giving a similar fully illuminated field.

This reduction in secondary size
(of diameter) increases contrast.

Most Newtonian's of around f5 -f6 have around 20%ish secondary obstruction .
This is better than say the 30-40% of a SCT.
This really only comes into play on high resolution work for planets and does not effect low power DSO work that much.
Hence true RC scopes of under f8 have obstructions near 50% but is not noticable for DSO's

A Newtonian can have even a smaller secondary of under 20% at the expense of a large fully illuminated field and as such may not fully illuminate a long FL low power eyepiece or CCD chip.
This is not a problem if the scope is a dedicated planetary Newtonian as small FL eyepieces ( say under 12MM) are all that is used and require a smaller F.I.F.V.

As far as to how small you can go with the secondary , any thing under 20% you most probably won't notice the difference , visually any way.
That being said there are commercial and DIY Newtonian's and variants out there with only 10% obstruction ratios , but these are in the order of f6-10 native focal ratios to be able to do this and requires good designing to get the most out of the secondary. ( another story)

My 12.5" Newtonian has a FR of f6 with a 17% obstruction ratio and it's planetary performance is first class and have only on a couple of occasions stepped it down to just over 100mm.
Was not that impressed with the stepping down due to the loss of resolution and prefer to wait for a night of steadier atmosphere.

Hope this confuses you even more

P.S. when people talk about a SCT of f10 don't think that it is easier to make an f10 than an f5 rule applies here.
The main mirror of a SCT has only a primary focal ratio of f1.9-2.1 and the cassegrain secondary a multiplier of about 4-5 and are a hard beast to make extreamly well, even if it is only a spherical surface. QC and tolerances have to be a lot better at f2 .

A link with interesting articles from R Royce .
This guy makes professonal mirrors down to f1 and lenses so kinda knows what he's talking about.

http://www.rfroyce.com/thoughts.htm

Mark

Last edited by mch62; 29-06-2005 at 09:55 AM.
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