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Old 13-12-2021, 03:23 PM
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Andy01 (Andy)
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Max wins F1 Championship

Well that was entertaining!
Unexpected but maybe F1 is learning from Nascar.

Nascar always has Green/White/Checkered flag finishes following a pace car incident, regardless of the number of laps completed - it's a sure way to guarantee a happy crowd and a proper race finish.

Too bad MB got caught with their pants down playing it safe, and well done Max & RB for gambling on tyre strategy that paid off.
So just for a change, the best driver, not just the guy with the fastest car, won the championship.

Best quote of the day from Race Director Michael Masi - "it's a motor RACE, Toto".
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Old 13-12-2021, 03:42 PM
ausastronomer (John Bambury)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy01 View Post
So just for a change, the best driver, not just the guy with the fastest car, won the championship.
There's no denying that Max deserved the win, but many would question whether he's the best driver and didn't have a faster car this season than Hamilton had. Without question between Hamilton and Max, they are the 2 best drivers.

There's a really good reason why the best driver (s) always end up in the fastest cars

What Max doesn't have that Hamilton has, is maturity, humility and grace, which was clearly evidenced when he carried on like a 5yr old after the 2nd last race of the season.

Cheers
John B
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Old 13-12-2021, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy01;1544160
Best quote of the day from Race Director Michael Masi - [I
"it's a motor RACE, Toto". [/I]
Yes Andy I did see that and, It's already been memed...
Click image for larger version

Name:	It's called a Motor Race.jpg
Views:	156
Size:	97.0 KB
ID:	284499
Best
JA
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  #4  
Old 13-12-2021, 05:39 PM
gary
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On Saturday before qualifying, an extended family member asked me
why I enjoyed Formula 1.

I answered that, "Because it mimics real life".

"How is that?", they asked.

I responded, "Because it is rarely fair and the rules keep changing".

So in that regard race director Micheal Masi making a series of
unprecedented calls just prior to the final lap did not disappoint.

The mechanism of the end of the Safety Car period was like no other
we had ever seen. Initially, lapped cars were instructed that they
would stay in place. Then in the penultimate lap, the decision is
reversed but with a brand new twist made up on the spot that
we have never seen before. Just the five cars between HAM and VER
would get out of the way but the others remain in place.

But it got even better. For years there have been calls to speed up the
end of the Safety Car period whilst we tediously waited for lapped cars to unlap
themselves and join the back of the pack. So at this championship
deciding race, the race director decides they will do that for the first time.

It turns out the rules really do mimic real life because they are full
of contradictions.

Article 48.12 states that "Unless the clerk of the course considers the
presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has
passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the
following lap
".

My highlight. "At the end of the following lap". No, we have the Safety
Car this time come in immediately.

On appeal, the FIA's "out" turned out to be rule 15.3, which says :-
Quote:
The Race
Director shall have overriding authority in the following matters and the clerk of the course may
give orders in respect of them only with his express agreement:

...

e) The use of the safety car
At its heart F1 is a technical sport. The decision of how to design the
car's aero package and engine and the minutiae of strategy and so on
are computed, estimated and guessed as best they can.
The events of the race act as the joker in the pack. Do you cover
an undercut, do you pit for fresh tyres, do you pit under a virtual or
real safety car and so on.

It seemed to me that it wasn't so much Mercedes making a bad call on
whether to pit for new tyres when the Safety Car came in, it was
they appeared to estimate how long it would take to clear the wreckage
on average plus the time it would take for overlapped cars to join the back
of the pack would exceed the number of laps remaining.
In other words, the race would end behind the Safety Car.
This technical estimate was based on years of prior experience based on how the
rules and procedures had been followed in the past.

But what they didn't take into account was my original comment about how
in F1 the rules are rarely fair and they keep on changing.

It is understandable that the race director is in charge of safety.
But at some point he decided to put on a racing spectacle by contriving
how the safety car period would end.

The weakest point of soccer is the penalty shootout. It only happens
when there is a draw.

But in this instance the director took upon himself to have a penalty shootout
when there was no draw and one player has availed himself of a pair
of brand new boots.

Even if the slowest car in the pack was given a set of fresh softs and
allowed to have a sprint against the Mercedes with a set of now really worn
hards, the underdog would have more than likely won.
So it was fait accompli.

If Latifi had crashed, say, on the final lap, it would have been a completely
different outcome.

It certainly will be controversial for many years to come.

In any case, the most dramatic, melodramatic and exciting season
for years is over.

There's that wonderful 1965 movie The Great Race, where the handsome
hero played by Tony Curtis, whilst kissing Natalie Wood in front of the
finish line at the Eiffel Tower, allows the villain played by Jack
Lemmon to win the race.

The Jack Lemmon character at first is jubilant because he has won, but
then calls for a re-race when he realises his final victory was hollow.

It has been an incredible and well deserved season for Max, but if it
were me, not how I would have liked to have finally won it.

BBC commentary on the events by Andrew Besnon here :-
https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/59631665
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Old 13-12-2021, 05:46 PM
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I don't think anyone saw that coming.... I was expecting a Senna Prost incident at the first corner.
What a race, what a finish
The safety car certainly added a twist, and in my opinion that is the way it should be done.
Well done Max
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  #6  
Old 13-12-2021, 06:52 PM
ausastronomer (John Bambury)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy01 View Post
Best quote of the day from Race Director Michael Masi - "it's a motor RACE, Toto".
That might have been the quote of the day but you can take it to the bank that next season Michael Masi will be in the grand stand selling hot dogs and not Race Director. While I think Max was consistently the fastest driver all year, in a fast car, that was without question one of the most appalling decisions I have ever witnessed in professional sport. Not only was Michael Masi flippant about his decision, his decision was clearly wrong and outside his jurisdiction as race director. He was also flippant to the wrong people. ie. The ones that pump the 10's of millions into the sport each year. I don't want to be buying shares in Michael Masi.

Cheers
John B
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  #7  
Old 13-12-2021, 07:05 PM
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Andy01 (Andy)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
But in this instance the director took upon himself to have a penalty shootout
when there was no draw and one player has availed himself of a pair
of brand new boots.
Actually, finishing under the safety car is more akin to a penalty shootout imo

Quote:
Originally Posted by JA View Post
Yes Andy I did see that and, It's already been memed...
Attachment 284499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausastronomer View Post
There's a really good reason why the best driver (s) always end up in the fastest cars
Except Bottas is proof that is not the case, at least this year!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ausastronomer View Post
Not only was Michael Masi flippant about his decision, his decision was clearly wrong and outside his jurisdiction as race director.
No, it's Formula One RACING, and entertainment for billions on TV, not "boring, follow me under the safety car Grand Prix" (we had one of those in Belgium this year already)... it was probably scripted by Netflix, Masi may be sacrificed yes to appease MB, but then will likely get a long term gig with Netflix and I can't wait for the next season of "Drive to Survive!"
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  #8  
Old 13-12-2021, 07:18 PM
ausastronomer (John Bambury)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy01 View Post
No, it's Formula One RACING, and entertainment for billions on TV, not "boring, follow me under the safety car Grand Prix" (we had one of those in Belgium this year already)... it was probably scripted by Netflix, Masi may be sacrificed yes to appease MB, but then will likely get a long term gig with Netflix and I can't wait for the next season of "Drive to Survive!"
If you want to make it a spectacle for billions and not have any rules that's fine, but if you are going to impose rules then they should be followed, not one person breaking the rules in the interests of the spectacle.

Cheers
John B
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  #9  
Old 13-12-2021, 07:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausastronomer View Post
If you want to make it a spectacle for billions and not have any rules that's fine, but if you are going to impose rules then they should be followed, not one person breaking the rules in the interests of the spectacle.

Cheers
John B
I think this season has amply demonstrated that the ‘rules’ are interpreted differently each race by the stewards. But you must admit it’s been way more interesting than the snoozefest of MB outright domination since 2014.

Final thoughts... After an F1 session which was the best advertising for F1 in a long, long time. Mercedes has now decided to destroy it all for their own interest and drag F1 down the drain in a future courtroom. This team has have had almost a decade of good publicity and worthy champions through F1. Now Toto has decided to destroy it all by not taking part in any interviews, showing exactly how a petulant, spoilt, entitled person behaves demonstrating equally average "sporting" behaviour.

Mercedes should drop their case, they've had an awesome run and deserve to be considered quite possibly the best team of all time, albeit at the cost of "entertainment" for the viewers

Last edited by Andy01; 13-12-2021 at 08:45 PM.
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  #10  
Old 14-12-2021, 12:17 AM
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Yes the best season and finish for many years! Both drivers were that close, literally.

No one seems to be talking about that first gimme to Hamilton for his detour through the chicane. I reckon that deserved a bigger penalty. So the decisions evened out.

Bloody Merc drivers 😂

And yeah, the farce of finishing any race with a procession of say, 10 laps led by a sluggish pace car, that is, well, a farce.

Maybe next year, a tied championship could be decided by a race in perfectly equal cars prepared by the lowest scoring team. In the wet.
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Old 14-12-2021, 09:34 AM
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It was an engineered win, to boost ratings and supply content for the Netflix series " Drive to Survive". Not to mention placating the millions of Max fans in the Netherlands, who have been claiming F1 was a British series and stacked against him. Netflix pays the F1 owner a significant amount of money, beyond the usual television rights deals. F1 is a big business, and the owners expect a good return on their investment.
Lewis Hamilton has nothing left to prove in this area, and honestly I would completely understand if he just decided to walk away from F1. He is extremely wealthy now, and at 36 he has indicated more often recently that there are other things he would like to do in life. Why put up with contrived results?

There are, despite what some here may say, rules that have applied for many years, related to safety car procedures. As many of the drivers have observed, the rules were ignored to create an opportunity for Max. If the rules had been followed Lewis would have likely won. If Lewis was made aware of the intention to ignore safety car procedures, in this race, he most likely would have pitted to change to soft tyres. As I said, it was contrived.
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Old 14-12-2021, 11:25 AM
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It's was a motor race, one team won, the other didn't, with representatives from the world governing body present, presiding and adjudicating.

Throughout the season and even the last race, decisions which likely could have impacted the final outcome went both ways.

It is what it is. I don't own a Red-Bull, but I'm OK with it

Best
JA

Last edited by JA; 14-12-2021 at 11:41 AM.
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Old 14-12-2021, 12:37 PM
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I stopped caring about F1 more than 30yrs ago, so many races are boring processions. Monaco in particular is a joke, overtaking possibilities being
almost non existent.
raymo
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Old 15-12-2021, 03:14 PM
ausastronomer (John Bambury)
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Quote:
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If Lewis was made aware of the intention to ignore safety car procedures, in this race, he most likely would have pitted to change to soft tyres. As I said, it was contrived.
This is the exact reason I think it was all wrong. Making it a spectacle is one thing, but one person decided not to follow the rules, unannounced, to make it a spectacle just bared Hamilton's arse to the wind, handed the Championship to Max and gave Hamilton no chance.

One thing is absolutely for certain ! Had the positions been reversed Max would have carried on like a 5yr old schoolboy, just like he did after the previous race. Hamilton on the other hand was gracious and left the arguing, protesting and complaining to the team, which is the way it should be handled.

Cheers,
John B
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Old 15-12-2021, 03:59 PM
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I have not had a chance to watch the full race, but recent history left me pretty comfortable with the first lap business. The precedent was starting to look pretty sound that dive bombing the car in front and pushing them off the track on corner exit was a valid way to overtake. The type of thing that in club level motorsport would involve an "Animated" discussion later at the back of the pits. At a non Tilkedrome type track with ten thousand acres of high grip runoff the "Overtaken" car would likely end up beached in kitty litter and out of the race, or in a wall. It could still have cost him the championship but I would honestly have preferred to see Hamilton keep to the track limits and if Max ripped both their wheels off, so be it.

My issue with the outcome was that the race director effectively made himself the race (And title) decider. Stick a safety car out there and Redbull were always going to roll the dice with sticking new tyres on. If the race ended under the safety car, nothing lost. If the lapped cars were sent through (Or just the ones between the leaders as was boiled up for this race) then they would be right behind the leader on nice fresh softs while the leader is on geriatric tyres that might be a couple of seconds a lap slower. Mercedes was ALWAYS going to sit it out instead of diving in for tyres, dive in and all Redbull had to do was cruise past into first place on track and a good chance of a win, certainly a much better chance than they had from behind the Merc without a tyre change, assuming the race ended under a green flag. If it ended up under the safety car as would probably have been expected then they would walk around for the win.

There was no downside to the Safety car for Redbull, and nothing but downside risk for Mercedes, but the "Anything for a green flag last lap" approach took a potential advantage for Redbull and turned it in to a real one.

It is a real pity that the season will probably always be remembered for this and not the competition. It is close to unarguable that they are the best two current drivers, and they are in the best two current cars and I hate to see the title decide by the stewards or the courts.
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Old 16-12-2021, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by ausastronomer View Post
This is the exact reason I think it was all wrong. Making it a spectacle is one thing, but one person decided not to follow the rules, unannounced, to make it a spectacle just bared Hamilton's arse to the wind, handed the Championship to Max and gave Hamilton no chance.

One thing is absolutely for certain ! Had the positions been reversed Max would have carried on like a 5yr old schoolboy, just like he did after the previous race. Hamilton on the other hand was gracious and left the arguing, protesting and complaining to the team, which is the way it should be handled.

Cheers,
John B
That is 'Sir Lewis Hamilton' now.

Max gets the win ... Sir Lewis Hamilton gets a Knighthood ... everyone win so no more complaining.

Last edited by Hans Tucker; 16-12-2021 at 06:18 AM.
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  #17  
Old 16-12-2021, 12:46 PM
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pretty sure that the race director was only trying to achieve what all the teams had agreed to ... that the race finish under green conditions and not yellow. He did just enough to ensure that - no more, no less
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Old 16-12-2021, 01:07 PM
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astroron (Ron)
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The FIA and Liberty media etc were determined that Max would win the championship, whether by fair means or foul.
That they have a rule that over rules all other safety car rules
and in doing so makes the race Director, a Race Dictator, makes all the other rules superfluous.
That Red Bull were slagging off Masi in previous races now think he is the
nicest man in F1.
Cheers
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Old 16-12-2021, 02:42 PM
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Looking back on several incidents throughout the season I think Lewis benefited from just as many decisions as Max.

I for one prefer to see a final lap like it was rather than cars cruising around under Safety Car conditions.

When you listen to the audio of Toto telling Masi not to deploy the safety car for one incident and begging Masi to let them race and then later in the same race whinging because Masi brought the safety car in to let them indeed race….
No wonder Ross Brawn has decided to prevent the team principals having direct comms to the race director for 2022…
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Old 17-12-2021, 12:13 AM
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I don't think Merc/Toto are "bad sports". They are taking the same steps any other team would take in the same situation. If the positions were reversed, i.e. Max had lead from the start and was passed on the last lap by Lewis who boxed for softs under the safety car and Masi ignored the safety car restart rules, then RB/Christian would be protesting.

Michael Masi has 2 options within the rules, to leave lapped cars in place and bring in the safety car on that lap or let them unlap and bring in the safety car on the next lap. Masi opted to ignore the rules and allow only the lapped cars between Ver and Ham. Now they first had safety cars in formula 1 in 1973. I started watching F1 in 1974 and I've never seen this type of restart procedure used in any other race.

If the rules were followed, Merc knew that if the lapped cars were allowed to pass then the safety car couldn't come in until the lap after the last lapped car passed the safety car, so the race would end under the safety car and Lewis would win the championship. If they left the lapped cars in place, they might get a racing lap but there would be 5 cars between Ver and Ham so even with old tyres Lewis would likely win. If Merc boxed Lewis he would have rejoined after Max and so if the race ended under the safety car, Max would have track position and win. The only strategy for Merc is to keep Lewis out on the old tyres.

Formula 1 has rules for safety and to provide a predictable environment for drivers and teams. Teams use the rules to make strategic decisions during the race.

Then Masi let half the lapped cars through and brings in the safety car 1 lap early, outside the established and agreed rules.

He actually broke his own rules. When Masi was criticised for not allowing racing to resume quickly in the Eifel GP in October 2020, he defended himself and said: “There's a requirement in the sporting regulations to wave all the lapped cars past.”

Michael Masi can't have it both ways.

Not only was Lewis' race compromised, Sainz was sitting in 3rd behind Verstappen. Masi left Stroll and Ricciardo (lapped cars) between Sainz and Verstappen. So Sainz had no chance to improve his position. He might also have been able to pass Hamilton and take 2nd in the race.

I don't think Masi will be Race Director in 2022.

Chris
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