Beginner - 15x70 or 20x80 Binoculars?

[psadams]

Hi to everyone. I'm new to astronomy & I'm looking to start out by purchasing a decent pair of binoculars. About a week ago I thought I'd decided on these AOE 15x70 binoculars.

- http://www.aoe.com.au/aoe70hp.html

I'm now considering 20x80 binoculars because I want to be able to see Saturn's rings & more deep space objects. Only downside is the smaller Field of View (FoV) & the higher price. These are the AOE 20x80 binoculars I've been looking at. They have an inbuilt tripod adaptor.

- http://www.aoe.com.au/aoe80.html

I will be mounting whichever binoculars I buy on a Velbon CX-660 tripod, which I decided on after advice from erick here

- http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=16865

I've read a few articles on starting out in astronomy & most people seem to recommend going for lower power binoculars with a wider FoV. I need some feedback on the pros & cons of 15x Vs 20x binoculars. Am I right in assuming I need at least 20 power binoculars in order to see Saturn's rings? Will the extra power help me see more deep space objects such as galaxies & nebulae?

Thanks in advance for your help.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

For your first pair I'd recommend low power binos for hand held use. 7x50, 8x40, 10x50. No more than 10x. For a second pair, a 15x70 or 20x80 would be nice though.

Don't buy binos to observe planets. That's telescope (or VERY expensive bino) territory. Most binos are not well suited to that task - being effectively a pair of short tube achromats.

You need to be aware of the difficulties of observing with a large pair of tripod mounted binos - whether 15x70 or 20x80. On an ordinary camera tripod style mount you will be limited to a max of about 40 degrees above the horizon. It gets very uncomfortable to look up any higher than that, and next to impossible to observe anything close to zenith. You can however lie on your back on a blanket or recliner and use the binos hand held, in which case I'd say go for the 15x70 over the 20x80.

There are more specialised bino mounts you can get or make that will allow you to observe the entire sky in comfort. These will cost a fair bit more than the binos themselves. Try Frontier Optics - they sell Universal Astronomics products who make what appear to be good bino mounts for astronomy.

[iceman (Mike)]

^^ Great advice from Steve. I second that.

[sheeny (Al)]

I have the 20x80s that you are considering and I recommend them. However, Steve's advice is sound and I would recommend you start with a set of 7x50s or 10x50s first - you will always use them, no matter what other instruments you have!

You'll need a decent tripod/mount to go with the 20x80s (or the 15x70s) too, but 7x50s or 10x50s you can hand hold relatively easily.

Al.

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Hi, I am a beginner like you, I have owned my 20x80 only 1.5 weeks and only had two observing sessions due to Sydney's cloudy skies lately. By reading the replies below I can tell you what I have learned and it is echoed by many other people on nearly every website you visit.

On the first night I mounted my nice bins on a scabby tripod that cost $130.00, I used it once and then promptly took them back to the store and asked for the strongest tripod in the store, they sold me these enormous three-legged monster like a surveyors tripod, the ones you see the blokes measuring the streets with.

I haven't used then yet because they did not have the adapter for the top which joins the tripod to the bins, so I am waiting for that, which should arrive this Thursday.

Another lister wrote an inspiring piece about selecting your first telescope, and included a bit on bins and the recurring theme throughout this gem was, "it's all about the mount".

Well with just hours more experience than you I can already tell you that trying to hold 20x80's is impossible, trying to have them on top of a crappy and somewhat unstable cheap tripod is just a waste of time. The entire thing has to remain stable and be easy to move the bins around with a minimum of force.

My crappy tripod, when moved sideways even the smallest fraction would set the thing bouncing all over the place, it took minutes to make sure it was still, there was no hope of trying to hold it and focus in whilst onto of this crummy tripod.

It was my fault, the shop had many different types and sizes and of course old el-cheapo Tailwag went for the cheapest, and I do mean they were cheap, cheap and nasty.

So the info you are getting is right IMHO, the mount can cost more than the actual binoculars and that's okay, you are not being ripped off, you will be glad you spent the extra to never have to go through what I did that first and last night.

Good luck which way you go, but remember to mount it in a sturdy fashion, or stay inside and drink coffee and watch House on the tube.

[erick (Eric)]

pasadams, I agree with the view that you need a pair of 7x, 10x or 12x as well as a set of 20x bins. I had an old pair of 7x50s which I used for a few weeks. Then I bought AOE's 12x60 and was pleased with the improvement. They can be hand-held quite well but also perform well on the Velbon tripod (except when trying to look to higher elevations). I still keep the 7x50s handy for visitors - they were great for Comet Mcnaught.

But, I couldn't stop at 12x and bought AOE's 20x80 $129 Christmas specials. Of course, nowhere near as good as your proposed 20x80 triplets - but I'm impressed (mind you, I don't know any different, so I'm easily impressed). With care, I can mount them on the Velbon tripod I have (the CX-540 - not the best option, I have now realised) - in fact I used this combination in a light wind last Saturday night to locate the Comet, observe Venus, look at the Jewel Box, look at M42 (a pretty high elevation, but it was possible comfortably), watch the Moon rise, and examine Saturn - all a pleasant hours viewing - actually just checking out a new observing location.

Then I went crazy and bought a pair of AOE's 30x100s. Now I had to make up a special mount, see here:-

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=16090

There is no way to hand-hold these or use my Velbon tripod mount. Plus, a
fork mount of this design allows viewing up to the Zenith (when you get the "knack" of balancing yourself on your tailbone!) I'm still experimenting and learning about my setup.

I think your Velbon CX-660 will do a good job on the 20x80s, up to a point (mostly the higher elevations is where you will come unstuck).

But, you will find the narrower FOV of the 20x80s can make finding things quite tricky, hence the recommendation for a pair of around 7x or 10x to help you pinpoint the key stars you need to hop from to the object of interest.

Re Saturn and Jupiter, I think I've come to the conclusion, as janoskiss says, that you really need a scope to see detail - but I'm going to persist in my quest to distinguish the rings of Saturn in the 20x and 30x - I know I can do it ( ) - I just need a really good night with excellent conditions in the next month.

Maybe the 10x bins don't have to be the world's best - AOE's 8x40WA and 10x50WA are quite economical (read cheap!) - but I have no idea how they perform. But if your purpose is to get a good sighting look at the area of interest at around 10x before you home in on targets with your 20x - they might do that job??

Re seeing deep space objects - I've been quite happy with my 20x80 and 30x100. Saw M1 (Crab Nebula) in both so that's not too bad:-

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...highlight=crab

Just a few (relatively inexperienced) thoughts. Eric

[yagon]

I observe with binos only. I've 8x42, 15x70 and 30x80.

In the 30x80s, I can easily see saturn's rings and jupiter's bands. The 15x70s don't quite do it. I'm not sure if 20x80s will show much on the planets.

AOE are great, their binos are outstanding value for money.

My recommendation for beginners is:

1. Buy 10x50 and 30x80 binos (with a basic mount)
2. Buy a good star atlas and a subscription to a magazine
3. Get under the stars every night you can
4. Go to a local suburban star party (assuming you live in the city) and look through as many scopes as possible
5. Go to a dark sky star party and look through as many scopes as possible

Then think about buying a telescope.

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Originally Posted by erick

Re Saturn and Jupiter, I think I've come to the conclusion, as janoskiss says, that you really need a scope to see detail - but I'm going to persist in my quest to distinguish the rings of Saturn in the 20x and 30x - I know I can do it ( ) - I just need a really good night with excellent conditions in the next month.

You sound a lot like me erick (that could be a bad thing), but I 100% totally agree with your entire post and especially join with you in your quest which is the same as mine.

Through necessity, financial bounds and experience counterbalanced with enthusiasm and awe, I intend to experience those two planets to the maximum possible advantage with my 20x80 given a perfect night. The only thing I would add is the need for a very sturdy mount, I had a setback by being a cheapskate and purchased a flimsy unit and decided in one night that I had made a terrible mistake.

The next day I came on this forum and read about the importance of having a solid tripod, even to the point where my tripod actually costs more than the binoculars. That is just a 'Head' thing for me and hard to understand, but it's the truth, I have learned the first rule of astronomy - Sturdy Mount.

[erick (Eric)]

Originally Posted by yagon

In the 30x80s, I can easily see saturn's rings and jupiter's bands.....

Please tell me about your 30x80s - make? source? approx price paid? They sound like they are performing well.

[psadams]

Thanks everyone for so much feedback on this. From your experiences & advice I've ruled out buying the 20x80s as my first binoculars.

I know I should really start with something like 10x50s, but I can't afford to buy 2 pairs of binoculars. I don't think I'll be able to buy a second pair for quite some time. I want something with reasonable magnification that is worth mounting on a tripod as I've already bought a Velbon CX-660 tripod & justified the expenditure to my wife. :-)

I'm now thinking that maybe I should get something inbetween 10x & 15x. What do you think of going for the AOE 12x60 binoculars instead of the 15x70s?

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

You really need the smaller binos for browsing the sky and finding things IMO - along with a planisphere and some basic charts. Even if you only get the $59 pair of 8x40WAs from AOE, which I have tried and found very usable (main letdown is flex in housing of eyepiece with diopter adjust but work-aroundable), it will greatly enhance your viewing experience through the bigger binos. Also look on the clearance specials page on AOE, and email them to ask what else they've got going cheap.

ps I have the AOE 12x60s and they feel more like oversized small binos than undersized big binos if you know what I mean. They are at the budget end of things but do work well. Fully illuminated FOV is only about 45 degrees.

[erick (Eric)]

I'm happy with the AOE 12x60s. They mount well on a tripod - you'll see lots. Look at Saturn - while you cannot make them out, your brain will know it has rings (cause you've seen the pictures).

Watch the buy/sell posts in this forum - I was able to get a pair of 20x80s at a good price for an interested friend - and she has been using them very happily.

[hakan2o]

You should take a look at Oberwerk or Garrett 25x100 or 30x100 from the US. They ship international and based on many overseas forum reviews they are the finest quality in this price range. Vixen, Orion, Celestron, Optex haven't quite pushed their quality to this level. Yet cost more or the same (in Australia).

The binos themselves will be cheaper from the US even with the exchange rate and shipping in comparison to the "rip off" merchants in Australia who mostly sell "inferior" products at incredible prices. It's difficult to comprehend this unless the Government has massive taxes on optical equipment which I'm not aware of.

http://www.garrettoptical.com/category-s/1.htm
http://www.oberwerk.com/products/products.htm

They are very responsive to questions as well.

I am just on the cusp of ordering the 30x100 WP-IF from Garrett.

See ya.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Originally Posted by hakan2o

The binos themselves will be cheaper from the US even with the exchange rate and shipping in comparison to the "rip off" merchants in Australia who mostly sell "inferior" products at incredible prices.

That's a pretty harsh accusation and unfounded IMO. Equivalent products are available from Australian dealers for significantly less than the best US or EU prices. We have some of the best prices on most Chinese, Taiwanese and some Japanese optics.

[psadams]

Originally Posted by janoskiss

You really need the smaller binos for browsing the sky and finding things IMO - along with a planisphere and some basic charts. Even if you only get the $59 pair of 8x40WAs from AOE, which I have tried and found very usable (main letdown is flex in housing of eyepiece with diopter adjust but work-aroundable), it will greatly enhance your viewing experience through the bigger binos. Also look on the clearance specials page on AOE, and email them to ask what else they've got going cheap.

ps I have the AOE 12x60s and they feel more like oversized small binos than undersized big binos if you know what I mean. They are at the budget end of things but do work well. Fully illuminated FOV is only about 45 degrees.

Thanks for your input. I'm now looking at the possibility of getting a pair of 8x40WAs from AOE along with a pair of 15x70s.

Do you think that this would be the best combination?

[psadams]

Originally Posted by erick

I'm happy with the AOE 12x60s. They mount well on a tripod - you'll see lots. Look at Saturn - while you cannot make them out, your brain will know it has rings (cause you've seen the pictures).

Watch the buy/sell posts in this forum - I was able to get a pair of 20x80s at a good price for an interested friend - and she has been using them very happily.

If I was to only by one pair of binoculars the 12x60s would be the ones I would go with.

I'm thinking that a smaller pair like 8x40s & a larger pair - 15x70s might be a better option.

[yagon]

Re 30x80s: see the link below re Barska x-trails for ~US$200 delivered to Australia:

http://www.binoculars.com/products/b...ail-46035.html

Keep in mind that no real detail is visible on Jupiter and Saturn, but they are clearly recognisable: which is enough to keep me happy. A scope is, of course, required to see detail.

30x80s are also great for observing the moon.

A small exit pupil helps. I sometimes mask down the aperture to a 2mm exit pupil, which helps on bright objects.

[yagon]

below is a review of the 30x80s:

http://www.cloudynights.com/ubbthrea...fpart/all/vc/1

keep in mind that they are not 'top shelf' optics, but are outstanding value for money

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

I would stay away from "coated optics" binos for astronomy. "Fully coated" is passable, but "fully multi-coated" (FMC) is what you really want. The improvement in brightness and contrast from "coated" to FMC is awesome. The Chinese binos sold by AOE come with very good full multi-coatings and at those prices there is really no need to go for any lesser coating IMO.

[erick (Eric)]

Originally Posted by psadams

If I was to only by one pair of binoculars the 12x60s would be the ones I would go with.

I'm thinking that a smaller pair like 8x40s & a larger pair - 15x70s might be a better option.

Well,if I have to commit myself, I'd say buy the AOE 8x40WA for $59. Spend time getting to know the sky and learning what you can see with these. You haven't spent too much and they'll be good for lots of daytime aplications as well. You'll appreciate your good tripod. Get a stool, sit comfortably without touching the binoculars, when you are lined up and focussed, and spend the time you need to really see something - 15-20 minutes. Your eyes/brain will gradually resolve stars and see nebula etc. Pity that it's past Andromeda Galaxy viewing time.

Then you'll want to save your pennies for a good step up in magnification. I'd say 20x80 that you could still mount successfully on that tripod.

Now, there will be as many opinions as posters here - good luck making your decision.

[EDIT - Now this is my problem - I look at the AOE site and see the 10x50WAs for only $10 more - $69. And I say, how can I resist. 10x50 will be measurably better than 8x40. This is the way I ended up with a pair of 30x100s! eek!)

Eric