A speed limit too late

Argonavis (William) · #1 02-01-2007, 08:04 PM

It appears that the NT government is finally to introduce speed limits:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...1/s1780024.htm

Not everyone is happy with this, but a weekend paper reported that a 110kmp trial speed limit on one road reduced serious accidents and fatalities by 40%.

This is long overdue, and if it had been done sooner, we would have this bloke still amongst us:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_Shoemaker

He died in a head on on one of those NT speed unlimted roads, during a geological field trip to Australia.

It is very sad that we loose people to stupid road accidents.

The car he collided with was on the wrong side of the road, I was told.

Spped kills, and excessive speed kills excessively.

jjjnettie (Jeanette) · #2 02-01-2007, 10:13 PM

About time.

ving (David) · #3 02-01-2007, 10:18 PM

man, its about time they lowered it huh!

still, 130 is bleeding fast!

sejanus (Gavin) · #4 02-01-2007, 11:37 PM

I think that lack of driver education kills more than speed does.

Ric · #5 03-01-2007, 02:40 AM

I think 130 is fast enough.

glenc (Glen) · #6 03-01-2007, 06:14 AM

I have been doing research on fatal crashes in NSW since my wife's sister was killed in a crash in 1995. I think the government exaggerates speed as a cause of crashes. I doubt the 40% figure is correct. You could argue that the Shoemaker crash was caused by the vehicle being on the wrong side of the road not speed. One of the biggest killers in NSW is head on collisions where the vehicles are not overtaking. In fact most deaths are caused by failure to stay in the lane. In the NT traffic volumes are low and hence the risk of head on crashes is also low. I think 130kph is reasonable on a low traffic volume straight two lane road.

iceman (Mike) · #7 03-01-2007, 06:26 AM

Divided roads is definitely the way to reduce road crashes (and deaths).

Having just driven up the pacific hwy to Coffs Harbour a few times over the last couple of months, the work they've been doing is definitely paying off. There's some great stretches of divided roads now, from the F3 to Karuah all the way past Taree, with only a few spots in-between where you have to slow down to 60 and go through some towns. It will only be a matter of time before those towns are bypassed (ok, maybe 20 years).

It's not good for the local businesses when a town is bypassed, but it makes the trip so much better and less risky when there's zero chance of a head-on collision.

The worst part of the trip is leading up to Coffs Harbour, where there was something like 10 fatalities last year. They're finally going to fix the road after years of political finger pointing and buck passing.

No doubt speed is a significant contributor to road accidents, but on winding roads like the pacific hwy, fatigue is probably more of a contributor at holiday time.

I am dubious of the "holiday road toll" figures though - what i'd prefer to see is some sort of ratio of deaths versus cars on the road. Yes there are more deaths at holiday time, but there are also more than double the amount of cars on the road. Is there more than double the amount of deaths (ratio the same?) or is there significantly more than that?

Also some of the deaths they report in the "holiday road toll" clearly had nothing to do with people being on holidays or holiday traffic.

I'm sure there's a better way to put out the statistics but I guess they're going for the maximum impact. If it helps people to slow down I guess it's worth it.

glenc (Glen) · #8 03-01-2007, 06:50 AM

Some fatal crash statistics for NSW.
24% of deaths are due to vehicles running off the road on a curve.
20% of deaths are due to vehicles running off the road on a straight.
19% involve head on collisions where the vehicles are not overtaking.
16% involve pedestrians.
11% occur at intersections.
If you are a careful driver and pedestrian the biggest worry is the multi vehicle crash.

hogly52 (Graeme) · #9 03-01-2007, 08:54 AM

I'm a very strong believer in improving driver education, which I think is far from satisfactory. There is too much attention paid to getting people to pass a driving test, rather than determining how well they can drive. Through better education drivers would learn how to drive, how to drive defensively, what is safe, what is not. They would learn when they can increase their speed safely and when they should slow down and drive to the conditions (which include the road, weather, other vehicles and traffic conditions, their own skill levels, their own alertness etc). Drivers might just change their attitude that being allowed to drive is a priviledge to be earned, not a right.
My last readings of an RACQ magazine put the main accident cause at driver inattention and failure to obey road rules. Speed was not at the top of the list.
However, there is the cynic in me that says that governments are more focussed on revenue gathering and assisting the insurance industry to reduce its losses. When governments start to seriously listen to the researchers, and look at the root causes of accidents, and in doing something about seeking resolution, then I'll have more faith in them, and they'll have greater credibility. After the fact fines and penalties hardly correct the problem!

My tuppence worth!

Graeme

vindictive666 (John) · #10 03-01-2007, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hogly52

I'm a very strong believer in improving driver education, which I think is far from satisfactory. There is too much attention paid to getting people to pass a driving test, rather than determining how well they can drive. Through better education drivers would learn how to drive, how to drive defensively, what is safe, what is not. They would learn when they can increase their speed safely and when they should slow down and drive to the conditions (which include the road, weather, other vehicles and traffic conditions, their own skill levels, their own alertness etc). Drivers might just change their attitude that being allowed to drive is a priviledge to be earned, not a right.
My last readings of an RACQ magazine put the main accident cause at driver inattention and failure to obey road rules. Speed was not at the top of the list.
However, there is the cynic in me that says that governments are more focussed on revenue gathering and assisting the insurance industry to reduce its losses. When governments start to seriously listen to the researchers, and look at the root causes of accidents, and in doing something about seeking resolution, then I'll have more faith in them, and they'll have greater credibility. After the fact fines and penalties hardly correct the problem!

My tuppence worth!

Graeme

my 2 cents ive been following this thread on the side lines

education is the way,cause ? who actually is responsible what i mean is is the vehicle responseable or the loose nut behind the wheel ?

i realise u could blame the cruise control ?

Ric · #11 03-01-2007, 10:03 AM

Education is certainly a positive step, I would be interested to know the ratios of younger drivers to older as well. Younger drivers are notorious for believing that it can't happen to them and that they are bulletproof.

I do not wan't to upset our younger members as through education a lot are careful and good drivers, but I was young too and can recall on reflection quite a few times where I have done stupid things and probably should have not made it to the age I am now.

Cheers

glenc (Glen) · #12 03-01-2007, 10:09 AM

Learning to judge the right speed for a curve seems to be a problem with many drivers. It's more important IMO than being able to parallel park. Driver training isn't much use if you are tired or under the influence of drugs.

hogly52 (Graeme) · #13 03-01-2007, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glenc

Driver training isn't much use if you are tired or under the influence of drugs.

I would hope that driver training would make you thoroughly aware of your responsibilities as a driver to ensure you don't even consider that you can drive while tired, under the influence of anything, or in anyway distracted as a driver. I think as a society we take driving too flippantly, and without full regard for the responsibilities we really have when in charge of a motor vehicle. Driver training is about changing and removing the attitudes, as much as developing the skills and knowledge in an appropriate environment.

Graeme

Dujon · #14 03-01-2007, 11:00 AM

True, Glen, on all counts. The ability to control a car in an awkward situation is very important. Whether this would make a difference to those (particularly males) who have learned some basic skills I would consider a moot point. Perhaps they would use those skills and still overstep their ability.

All (OK, a lot of) young drivers will test the 'envelope' on the open road before they realise that what they are doing is either risky or pure stupidity. Like Ric I too was young and immortal. Like Ric I am lucky to still be among the living given the risks I took - as are my passengers of that era.

Nevertheless, I do feel that proper car control should be stressed more that the 'three point turn' and 'reverse parking' (although these too are important) when assessing drivers for the privilege of acquiring a drivers licence. If such a licence is granted then it really should be a 'rite of passage' and not just a 'right to passage'.

sejanus (Gavin) · #15 03-01-2007, 12:00 PM

Not that I'm very old now, but when I was 18-25'ish I spent the majority of my time buying some pretty insanely fast cars which no doubt has me labelled as a hoon by the average public.

However, I did spend a heck of a lot of time at track days where a bunch of us would hire out a racetrack for the day. usually wakefield/eastern creek/oran park.

Whilst there trying to set fast laps you learn an awful lot about driving a car, and more importantly correcting a car when you push it a bit too far.

As a result I have pretty decent car control skills. Often when I am a passenger in a car I am absolutely horrified by their lack of ability and comprehension of what is going on outside the car. The average driver has barely any skills at all - they have nothing more than the ability to operate a machine to the absolute minimum.

There are courses that teach the sort of stuff I learnt on a racetrack - I think everyone should have to do it - compulsory.

I agree with glenc regarding speed limits - I think it's a load of rubbish and a convenient 'out'. I am in favour of speed limits on *selected* freeways being increased above 110 for certain (not yet created) license classes. I think anything to finish your trip faster is a good thing!

With the original poster talking about that blokes crash in the NT - that crash could have been at 60km/h and he still could have died.

neB · #16 03-01-2007, 12:39 PM

Hmmm.

I strongly agree that speed is not the major factor in road safety - except maybe driving too slow. This is way overplayed by the authorities as an easy way out and great revenue earner.

The big issue is driver training. I've done defensive and performance driving courses. And as a former (and hopefully future again!!) rally driver I've learnt some of the skills that most people don't even know about or realise, that can make us all better drivers.

I lived in Darwin for a while and enjoyed several trips to Katherine and Kakadu etc, sitting on 180kph all the way. You've got to realise many of these roads are air-strip straight (as used during WWII), you can see for miles and there is no-one else on them and it is a looooong way to anywhere. They are as safe as doing 100kpm on a major highway. The problem is when people come across a curve and don't think to slow down. The only moment we ever had was coming across some army tanks on the road doing about 60kph (it seemed) while we were at 100+kph more than them. Camo paint at dusk - we didn't see them till we were passed them.

Having said all that, I have no issue with the new speed limits if society feels safer for it. Problem is, when drivers feel safer, they drive more recklessly. When ABS was introduced, BMW stats showed that drivers with ABS were more likely to die than drivers without ABS. Why, because they thought they were safer.

Ric · #17 03-01-2007, 05:07 PM

I agree Sejanus, learning car skills on a racetrack or in my case motorcycle skills can be a lifesaver.
I raced bikes for 15 year in the production and superbike classes and the skills in the way of braking and cornering are probably more valid to me now in everyday riding.
Another valid point that it also teachs you is machine setup, so many times the car/bike itself is also neglected be it bald tyres, brake fluid chamber dry, wheel bearings worn etc.
The amount of times these are overlooked and people just jump in and drive without having a look around and under the car. Twenty minutes once a week could make a big difference.

Cheers

Argonavis (William) · #18 03-01-2007, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric

I agree Sejanus, learning car skills on a racetrack or in my case motorcycle skills can be a lifesaver.

well it didn't help Peter Brock - the fact remains that speed kills as it amplifies the other factors - inattention, drugs, loss of control of the vehicle.

Driver education misses the simple physics of what happens when 2 bodies collide - and the momentum that a car generates even at 60kph is really really dangerous. One slip and you are gone. That is how cars run off straight roads, or have head-ons without attempting to overtake - the common factor is excessive speed and overconfidence.

spacezebra (Petra) · #19 03-01-2007, 08:07 PM

I have undertaken defensive driver training and it was worth every cent. Especially during the days when my job required a great deal of car travel.

I would like to see it form part of every licence that is handed over, but at the end of the day its not the panacea.

Cheers Petra

GrahamL · #20 03-01-2007, 09:33 PM

A friend lost his daughter recently on the pacific highway south of ballina
The cause ..IMO .. was definately driver error on the part of the car she was travelling in.. but another major contributer was that after the tragic bus accidents that took 60 + lives a few years back now caused a major shake up of PR spin regarding higway upgrades .Overtakeing lanes were added here and there without much thought to what they were actually presenting drivers with.. IMO.. what was
common round my way was you had 3 lanes with the option of overtakeing from both directions effectively putting 4 lanes of traffic
into those three lanes approaching each other with a bit of "oh ****" somones pulled out into that clear lane i just looked at presenting itself at you . .. what happened in this case was just this 4 lanes of traffic spilled into 3 lanes .. confusion and panic .. had a b double go straight through the car she was travvelling in .. the driver of the other car that was trying to overtake the truck took his life a week later.. they have NOW
stopped this crazy stuff and you can only overtake from the double laned side like it should of always been !! ..but I still see her pic out on the highway were she lost her life with 3 friends .. 16 is way to young eh?