It steams my clams when someone complains about Bintel's prices

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

...now that I'm a telescope retailer myself, I know how hard it is to keep everyone happy with prices.

Today I had someone ask me about why a A$79 for a Telrad is a 100% markup when it is listed on Amazon for US$40.

I replied that other retailers have the same price as we do, and we have Australian warranty, and very fast (overnight) shipping when we have it in stock, or you can drop by and pick it up same day. Told him the sums don't add up and he gets into a hissy fit about astro retailers overcharging everyone.

Sorry, but Amazon don't ship to Australia. In my experience Amazon sellers will charge a lot of shipping because Australia is a long way from the US; a freight forwarder will have a base charge of about $30-$40, not including the shipping charge, which brings your Telrad to $70 excluding the shipping charge itself--USD.

Your LAS (I'm coning a new acronym now Local Astronomy Shop) has to pay landlords, bills, and gasp! a living wage. And they need to charge you GST 10% which goes back to the ATO.

Where are these people pulling their figures from?! Do they even do elementary school maths?

OK, maybe people complaining about us and Bintel prices being a little high is not that bad...

...but don't get me started on people complaining to us about Astro Pete's prices and please please can we beat those prices?! How bout no?

If you complain about our prices, fine--because some of our overheads are more expensive, but I can't help you make the entire industry stoop to that level and we certainly do not do price collusion because that is illegal and we're not in the business of ripping customers off!!

Seriously! Where do these people come from? Running a business in this economy is different from running one overseas! Margins in this business are very small compared to things like clothing and food.

[Nikolas (Nik)]

I bought an orion ed 80 from amazon a week ago, all up it cost 690 delivered in less than a week, guess how much they retail here......

[raymo]

People should also realise that astro supplies would be a relatively low
volume business that could not exist on miniscule profit margins such as those "enjoyed" by high volume businesses.
Talking of miniscule, Australia is a miniscule market, so importers can't even get the benefit of bulk purchasing.
raymo

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

I bought an orion ed 80 from amazon a week ago, all up it cost 690 delivered in less than a week, guess how much they retail here......

Good luck getting warranty service on that one. I've lost count on the number of customers who thought they got warranty service on imports but when something goes wrong the US retailer won't pay help them at all, and the local dealer can't help get parts because the supplier won't supply it for people importing themselves.

Synta (skywatcher and orion) scopes have 5 years manufacturer's warranty. This is why you get the $1,095 price tag for the Ed80s here because the warranty service is done locally.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by raymo

People should also realise that astro supplies would be a relatively low
volume business that could not exist on miniscule profit margins such as those "enjoyed" by high volume businesses.
raymo

When we get more stock moving through, we will be able to lower the prices. But right now we are a "boutique" type shop. I aim to get us up to a warehouse shop where we can get more volume discounts.

But that's a long shot.

[raymo]

I hope there's nothing wrong with it Nik, because you'll have to pay the freight to send it back to the U.S.
raymo

[Nikolas (Nik)]

It's perfect. These things are built like tanks and perform beautifully. In all my time buying and selling I've never had issues, lucky maybe or just lots of homework.
Also Anthony who ran Bintel in Melbourne is opening up his telescope repair business soon so even if there was an issue it would still be cheaper to sort any issue here than to spend almost $450 more to purchase one locally.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by raymo

I hope there's nothing wrong with it Nik, because you'll have to pay the freight to send it back to the U.S.
raymo

OMG you reminded me of this person we had to bought Bushnell Legend binos that had lifetime warranty from B&H in the states... but they refused to help her and we can't do even out of warranty repairs cos the new binos can't be repaired by a third party--it's impossible to get into them. She's upset she can't get it repaired, we're upset we can't make her happy but what can you do...

Only the binos cost 2-3 times much depending on the model, but when you're talking about lifetime warranty, you're paying for a lifetime of servicing and replacement.

The longer the warranty service, likely the bigger difference in price.

At the moment we aren't doing big Orion stuff, because Skywatcher has very similar stuff and I'd rather leave Bintel to sell Orion because the market here is very small like raymo mentioned.

We only get decent quantity/bulk discounts if we import by container load. I'm looking to get containers moving through but that means new premises, bigger outlay of capital, and lots of risk.

If you go to any less common hobby shops, you'll see the same thing. I got into marine aquariums and it is interesting to talk to the shop owner and they also experience the same thing. And for them, they're dealing with livestock. You could argue that fish and reef rock ('live rock') is free, but think about it... you have to pay your supplier/collectors, their overheads, freight, and then running costs to keep the fishies alive until someone buys them. I think markups in that industry is more like 200%-500%.

[Nikolas (Nik)]

Originally Posted by kittenshark

Good luck getting warranty service on that one. I've lost count on the number of customers who thought they got warranty service on imports but when something goes wrong the US retailer won't pay help them at all, and the local dealer can't help get parts because the supplier won't supply it for people importing themselves.

Synta (skywatcher and orion) scopes have 5 years manufacturer's warranty. This is why you get the $1,095 price tag for the Ed80s here because the warranty service is done locally.

Seriously what could go so wrong?
It arrived it is perfect it works. In the rare occasion one of these are faulty there are other ways of getting it serviced/repaired that still would be cheaper than paying the full price.
I have bought large ticket and small ticket items from Bintel but since they shut up shop in Melbourne it's been a nightmare. I've ordered 2 items from them and they never take out the postage cost until AFTER it has been sent so you are never sure how much an item will cost to be sent to Melbourne. It's a little dishonest as it's not in the final price. This is not the Bintel I supported.
Ozscopes are ok but they don't stock a lot of stuff. It's getting harder to get what you need locally. Warranty is nice to have but it's not the be all and end all when I purchase stuff that is hundreds of dollars cheaper for medium and small ticket items.
How many people buy second hand and are happy?
unfortunately as long as we are gouged by the importers the retailers are the ones who suffer.
So you should not have a beef with the end user your beef is with the importers and the middle men. *cough celestron cough* is a prize example. I know that there are changes in motion with celestron but it's nothing set in concrete yet and they are still over priced here.

[MattT]

Is this thread about why prices are high in Oz or an ad for Sirius Optics?



Matt

[Nikolas (Nik)]

By the way what is the name of your company? you got a link?

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

It's perfect. These things are built like tanks and perform beautifully. In all my time buying and selling I've never had issues, lucky maybe or just lots of homework.
Also Anthony who ran Bintel in Melbourne is opening up his telescope repair business soon so even if there was an issue it would still be cheaper to sort any issue here than to spend almost $450 more to purchase one locally.

Most of the time they will be OK. Modern mass market scopes are built to better standards than they are some years ago.

Not everyone has the time to do all the research--we provide the service in helping them get the scope they need.

We expect about a 5-10% failure rate to play safe but even that can be too optimistic. We suddenly found manufacturing fault in a number of Meade scopes this month and if it weren't for the margins we charge we would have been toast because of all the lost time we had to spend fixing them. Yes, scopes are built well, but manufacturing faults are common--that's what warranties are for. Remember the guy who bought the Esprit? Those things are tanks. Super solid. But not immune to faults.

If you got a local repair place to go--it's to your advantage, but not everyone is so lucky or live close to one.

How are the Melbourne boys doing? I sent a couple of people their emails when they needed repairs in Melbourne but I don't know if they got themselves properly set up yet.

[Nikolas (Nik)]

Not sure yet about how Anthony is going yet he said the this year is when he was gonna start in earnest.
Here is his website
http://www.battes.com.au/

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Seriously what could go so wrong?
It arrived it is perfect it works. In the rare occasion one of these are faulty there are other ways of getting it serviced/repaired that still would be cheaper than paying the full price.
I have bought large ticket and small ticket items from Bintel but since they shut up shop in Melbourne it's been a nightmare. I've ordered 2 items from them and they never take out the postage cost until AFTER it has been sent so you are never sure how much an item will cost to be sent to Melbourne. It's a little dishonest as it's not in the final price. This is not the Bintel I supported.
Ozscopes are ok but they don't stock a lot of stuff. It's getting harder to get what you need locally. Warranty is nice to have but it's not the be all and end all when I purchase stuff that is hundreds of dollars cheaper for medium and small ticket items.
How many people buy second hand and are happy?
unfortunately as long as we are gouged by the importers the retailers are the ones who suffer.
So you should not have a beef with the end user your beef is with the importers and the middle men. *cough celestron cough* is a prize example. I know that there are changes in motion with celestron but it's nothing set in concrete yet and they are still over priced here.

I had a beef with the particular end user who just didn't know how to do simple sums. We were talking about an item that was actually cheaper to get locally!

I caught up with Celestron and they're still setting themselves up as Celestron Australia. They were way overpriced still land that's why we decided not to do Celestron. They only want to deal with container-loads now, but if one's dealing with that volume, you'd expect steeper discounts, but I'm not sure if this is the case. We'll see, we'll see.

So following your logic your beef shouldn't be with the retailer, but with the importers and middle men?

I thought one calls Bintel direct for a shipping quote first? Strange that they charge you after... but that said it's really hard to make a shipping quote calculator that doesn't screw up half the time.

I just want to share with you some of the inner workings of a LAS and the reasons behind our prices.

Yes, we can repair and help, but some products require specific parts, and some suppliers will only support and supply parts if it was bought from that particular authorized dealers.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Not sure yet about how Anthony is going yet he said the this year is when he was gonna start in earnest.
Here is his website
http://www.battes.com.au/

You're a lifesaver, thanks!

[Nikolas (Nik)]

Originally Posted by kittenshark

So following your logic your beef shouldn't be with the retailer, but with the importers and middle men?

Yep it is the importers and suppliers that are the real crooks in the business, we have way too many hierarchies all taking a cut before it even gets to the retailer

I thought one calls Bintel direct for a shipping quote first? Strange that they charge you after... but that said it's really hard to make a shipping quote calculator that doesn't screw up half the time.

One does not have time to call and wait on hold when one is in the classroom and time is limited outside of teaching and administration.
It can't be that hard to give an estimate, how do other sites do it?
[/quote]

I just want to share with you some of the inner workings of a LAS and the reasons behind our prices.

Yes, we can repair and help, but some products require specific parts, and some suppliers will only support and supply parts if it was bought from that particular authorized dealers.

Hence I only purchase items that can be dealt with easily from overseas unless they are complex, then I'll take the hit.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by Nikolas

Yep it is the importers and suppliers that are the real crooks in the business, we have way too many hierarchies all taking a cut before it even gets to the retailer



One does not have time to call and wait on hold when one is in the classroom and time is limited outside of teaching and administration.
It can't be that hard to give an estimate, how do other sites do it?

Hence I only purchase items that can be dealt with easily from overseas unless they are complex, then I'll take the hit.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for sharing Nik!

I promise not to whine about customers who have done their homework and don't expect us to fix their broken toys on the cheap for them or under "warranty". Most of our customers are very patient angels, but then you got some weird guy whining about something that isn't true... it really throws you off.

Personally, it took us months (almost 6) to get the website up and running. We refused to launch it until we got the shipping calculator done. It took months because the people who made the plugin were flat-out busy and we couldn't do it ourselves. So I totally understand Bintel wanting you to call first for a quote. I think even with everyone calling for quotes it wouldn't take up 6 months of our time!

A good estimate, if you want to get an idea of shipping and you know the box size and weight, is to hop on to Temando or Baggage Freight online quoting system. They do volume discount pricing so it's cheaper than AusPost for large parcels.

And it still occasionally is glitchy. There are other plugins/services but they were slow, gave poor rates, or only worked with overseas (mainly US) sites. I had it giving people $400 quotes for shipping a tiny box locally at one time but I think I fixed it.

[raymo]

I'd just like everyone to know that I have no connection to any company, and
was making observations based on owning a watch and jewellery shop many
years ago.

[kittenshark (Cheryl-Ann Tan)]

Originally Posted by raymo

I'd just like everyone to know that I have no connection to any company, and
was making observations based on owning a watch and jewellery shop many
years ago.

Actually raymo, it is a very similar business in may ways. It is retailing fairly high-value items that are low volume. The main difference here is that it is bulky goods and you need a lot of shop/warehouse space.

I used to run a costume jewelry shop as well and my markups were insane even though I imported materials direct and manufactured locally. The reason was that it was a low volume business with a number of other fixed costs. When I saw the markups in astronomy gear I was rather shocked that they were so low, after being used to huge margins. But hey, it's working out.

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Buyers will try to maximise what they can get for their money. If the savings are more than about 10% then warranty becomes irrelevant because the odds of needing it are probably less than 10%. That is unless the buyer likes to gamble when the odds are stacked against them. ("Neddy doesn't believe in insurance. He considers it a form of gambling." )

If I can afford to support local vendors then I will. But there comes a point where one cannot justify paying so much more: normally willing to pay up to 30% mark-up, but anything approaching 50%, e.g. $800 online vs $1200 local, forget it!

But what I tend to find is that if I make the effort to shop around and actually contact enough Aussie vendors (not just browse websites), they will either get me a good deal, or give good advice on where to buy. These are the best kind of vendors.

Like AEC, whom I asked about Nikon NAV-SWs a couple of months back and they told me (verbatim as far as I recall our phone conversation): "Don't buy those from us because we're very expensive [Aussie dollar etc]. You're better off buying directly from Japan." I got similar advice from Matt at Telescopes & Astronomy regarding binoviewers. Can't beat honesty for earning a customer's loyalty. These vendors have also supplied me with excellent value for money equipment in the past btw.

Re Bintel, I don't know what they're like these days. I'm in Melbourne and sorry to have learned recently that Roger Davis is no longer running that shop. He loved a chat about scope building and helped me out on many occasions, just because he loved doing so, not because he wanted to make a sale. He'd often fix me up with spares from his personal collection of scope bits.