Lest we forget.

[Dennis]

I would like to pay a tribute and my respects to those men and women that suffered and perished whilst serving in the armed forces in the horror that is war. I thank them for my freedom today and I am grateful for their sacrifice and bravery, I cannot imagine what they had to face. My thoughts and prayers are also with their families, friends and loved left behind.

Lest we forget.

Dennis

[brian nordstrom (As avatar)]

LEST WE FORGET .

Brian.

[wavelandscott (Scott)]

Although we are half-way around the world on ANZAC Day, we have our flag out and up and the kids are prepared to share the story at school (along with some ANZAC biscuits)...Lest We Forget...

[PCH (Paul)]

When I first subscribed to IIS a fair few years ago, year on year this thread used to be much longer than this. It seems we have somewhat 'forgotten'.

I love this time of year as it gives me a chance to re-read those wonderful verses outlined in earlier posts. It's hard to imagine how people can put such thoughts into words.

Just my 2c and no offence intended.

[mr bruess]

A Day To Remember Anzac Day folks!!! I saw the Dawn Service on TV.
lets not forget those soldiers who died young for us.They made the ultimate sacrifice by giving up their lives for our freedom and protection.


Have one for the good old diggers and definitely spare a moment or 2 of gratitude for what these guys have had to endure both while they were there on the battlefield and afterwards - such a big burden to carry for us and the price of freedom.
Lest we forget.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[rat156]

Hi All,

I've had a contrasting two Anzac days over the past two years.

Last year was spent in Kandahar with the men and women of the ADF, the dawn service was a solemn affair with only a few speeches, but for the most part conducted by the Padre so it was a bit more religious than was expected. Afterwards there was the obligatory two-up and then settled in to watching the Anzac day AFL game. I got a care package made by a primary school grade which contained Anzac bickies, some pictures the kids had made (which I still have), vegemite and some other stuff. I emailed the school later one to thank them. After that was finished I think I went back to work (or at least checked to see if any work had come in). The ADF guys spent a good proportion of their day on social media catching up with their home unit and their commemorations.

This year was a dawn service near home, again a solemn affair, but with speeches from a local politician and a short benediction from a local religious person. The national anthems were sung by a local primary school choir. After this we had breakfast and settled in to watch the Anzac day march (and in my wife's case, catch up on some sleep). I then attended the Anzac day AFL game, had some beers, watched the wrong team win and took the train home. If I had been in Sydney I would have attended the home unit's commemorations with some of the guys I was deployed with, but I'm in Melbourne so that's not an option.

I was going to answer some of Bert's insulting and ill-informed commentary, but I have learned from past experience that this will get the thread locked. I thought I'd just share a contrasting view of Anzac day.

Lest We Forget.

Stuart

[Dennis]

Bert, you have made me think. I think that your insensitivity and tone is neither educational, inclusive nor constructive, so I would question your “feeling secure”. If you enjoy that security, why wait until this time each year to hijack this thread in the same manner.

If you would like others to hear your voice and continue with that particular debate, please start your own thread, as has already been suggested earlier.

You clearly have a big intellect. Maybe its sharpness could be less cutting and its brilliance less blinding, if your goal is to win hearts and minds.

Regards

Dennis

[rat156]

Originally Posted by avandonk

Point taken.

But not acted upon...

Originally Posted by avandonk

How many mates that you grew up with that died in Vietnam? It does go on. I lost quite a few.

None, wrong age bracket. But I've lost two mates in Afghanistan, do they count?

Originally Posted by avandonk

War is horrific! You just cannot face the horror.

Went to Afghanistan last year, does that count?

Originally Posted by avandonk

Preach to me when you have had bullets and shrapnel all around you and incoming mortars.

Bert

No bullets, but we often had rockets fired at us. They destroyed the Pizza Hut one night, thankfully no-one was hurt. In a strange way that rocket probably helped save the life of a few Americans. Pizza Hut is not good, Pizza Hut in Kandahar is borderline toxic. Does this count?

Like I said earlier, start another thread and I'll debate you on your views of war. You might be surprised that
a) Your opinion is flawed in some respects
b) We agree about some aspects of what you say

My last comment in this thread.

Cheers
Stuart

[entity62]

http://www.awm.gov.au/commemoration/...zac-tradition/

Quote from above and the last sentence say's it all.

Australians recognise 25 April as an occasion of national remembrance, which takes two forms. Commemorative services are held at dawn – the time of the original landing – across the nation. Later in the day, ex-servicemen and women meet to take part in marches through the major cities and in many smaller centres. Commemorative ceremonies are more formal and are held at war memorials around the country. In these ways, Anzac Day is a time when Australians reflect on the many different meanings of war.

Darrell

[Dennis]

Dear Forum Members

As Bert has declined my request not to continue with his train of posts in the thread, could I ask other members to refrain from posting any replies to the posts he continues to make?

Whilst this is a free country and an open forum, in my opinion there is no purpose being served in responding to Bert?

However, I would welcome posts in the spirit of my original post, as nicely summarised by Darrell’s thoughtful post above.

Thank you

Dennis

[Ric]

I was chatting with my godson this morning who had hid first ANZAC day as a member of the Australian Army.

He was saying that it now means a lot more him than before when seen from a different perspective.

To all our fallen soldiers, RIP, Lest we forget.

[Shano592 (Shane)]

It is hard being in another country, that doesn't recognise this sort of day.

For the whole day, these past sacrifices have been in my mind.

I don't get out to dawn services, but I thank a lot of current and former service men and women in person, for putting their futures at risk. More broadly, I thank them all. Even Bert, if he'll take my thanks as it is offered.

War is terrible, and I'm sure most are started by unhinged people, bent on pure destruction.

As a nation, we have never started a war, only gone in to bat for our friends. We go to help end them; to bring peace. We weren't founded by war, so war is not in our blood.

April 25 will always be special to our nation, as we choose to commemorate, for whatever reason suits each of us best. Personally, I am thankful to our Diggers for the freedoms I currently enjoy on a daily basis.

[Paul Haese]

Having been a soldier in the Australian Army 81-87, i was trained by Vietnam veterans and learnt that Anzac day is a day of quiet reflection. IT IS NOT a time for attacks on the merits of war. To do so is insulting to those that died and gave the ultimate sacrifice, those that survived needed the peace and the quietness in the morning to remain sane. Please Bert for the sake of the fallen stop acting like a royal turd. I have been shot at with real rounds and I can tell you it was the most frightening time of my life. Anzac day is the day that I sit and thank those that fell, especially those that died stopping the advance of the Japanese in New Guinea. Without that sacrifice things might have been very different here. So now just stop and be quiet, find another thread to comment in or go and attempt some processing for a bit.

[LewisM]

What an utterly insulting thread, though from only one person who I formerly enjoyed reading from.

I lost a Great Uncle SOMEWHERE in a field in Ypres. Never found, probably never will. He went to war knowing what to expect. He was 17.

My Great Grandfather, Lt. Thomas Endymion Lewis (MM, Mentioned in Despatches, nominated for Croix de Guerre) was gassed in Belgium. The after effects of the mustard gas is what eventually killed him after serving YET AGAIN in WW2. He was seconded to train the Yanks in 1917, and it was whilst with them he was in an artillery barrage that ended up burying him under mud and dirt. If the Yanks were not so green and in need of leadership, and not dug him out, he would still be in that very field. He then went on to lead a machine gun battalion for the remainder of WW1, but then was in hospital in London for 2 years (came home 1920).

My maternal Grandfather, Kenneth Walter Powell, was in the attacks on Darwin (and WAS granted theatre pay and later a TPI Gold Card for this), the attacks on Townsville (that most people do not even KNOW about), and was at Milne Bay (he was repatriated to Darwin). He did 15 years ago due to complications from the Splenectomy performed after injuries at Milne Bay (he developed myeloproliferative disorder, due to his liver taking over the spleen duties for most his life etc as well as leukemia).

My paternal Grandfather was at Morotai at the end doing the mop up (he is the youngest of them all). He is still alive. I have his souvenir Katana he brought home with him (no glory story - he had a pair of binoculars, and the guy with the sword wanted to trade, so they did). When asked back in the 80's and 90's for people to consider handing the swords back to the Japanese families, his response, from a VERY clean mouthed devoutly religious person was "Yes, they can have it back - point first up their [flaming] arses!" (replace with flaming with the f word).

No Bert, perhaps we didn't have an army invade us like in Holland, but we damned near nearly did. You have to remember that MANY THOUSAND Aussies gave their lives up to fight for countries they were not even citizens of - Holland for one (interesting side point is the invasion of Holland took all of 7 days for the Germans to complete!!!!!!!). Our blood is all over Europe, and as the song - one you may be ignorantly unaware of - goes, "Australia will be there!".

Yes, the politics of war are grotesque. The sacrifices made can NEVER, EVER be diluted with such petty sentiment as yours.

[entity62]

Interesting read.

Ruling classes around the world have their national myths. These attempt to tie working people to the capitalist class through the false idea of nationhood – a recent historical development.

The Australian version of this national myth is Anzac day. It is supposedly the day Australia became a nation. It celebrates our defeat at Gallipoli in 1915.

It is important to understand the historical context around the establishment of this day. The first Anzac day was held in 1916. The war to end all wars was bogged down in bloody slaughter. In Australia support for the imperialist adventure was split.

Many workers remembered the bitter class battles of the 1890s and the depression that drove many into poverty.

Workers had ignored Federation, despite the cheer squads of Australian capitalism attempting to use that event to glue workers to the system and the exploitation that arises from it. For many workers class was the most important determinant of loyalty.

The war further exacerbated class divisions.

Many rejected outright participation in the battle between two competing imperialisms. Others, influenced by the Labor Party, supported it but opposed conscription.

The class still had a memory of internationalism, and the impending outbreak of revolutions across Europe (including the German revolution, which ended Germany’s war) would only further reinforce this sense of class solidarity across borders and against the common enemy – capital.

Here in Australia the divisions were highlighted by the rapid growth of the Industrial Workers of the World, a revolutionary group committed to a democratic society without bosses. Indeed the “Wobblies” were such a threat that the police and security forces framed leading members for arson, and the state made being a member illegal, closed down their press and finally outlawed the organisation itself.

Conscription was the issue that saw class divisions come out most starkly in Australia. Working people and their parties opposed conscription, and defeated both referendums on the issue. The ALP split, with the forces around Billy Hughes going over to join the Conservatives and form a Government.

In 1917 there was a general strike in Australia. Overseas the Tsar’s regime in Russia collapsed after a five-day strike begun by women workers on International Working Women’s Day.

The first Anzac Day was an attempt to divert anger away from the capitalist class to those who were “disloyal”. It was also an important part of the pro-conscription propaganda.

The immediate concern the ruling class had was that disaffected soldiers – and there were many, having witnessed the reality of war – would link up with the radical sections of society. Anzac day deliberately offered them an alternative, an alternative that celebrated their role and remembered those who died rather than questioning why war occurred and why workers died for profits.

In fact, class polarisation (which reached its apogee in 1917 in Russia with the working class taking power on 7 November) continued in Australia and elsewhere for a number of years after 1916 and 1917. This saw Anzac day almost disappear in the early 1920s.

It revived after that as the revolutionary tide ebbed (exemplified by the rise of Stalin in Russia and Stalinism elsewhere). The forerunner of the RSL rebuilt itself by setting up clubs and pubs and helping returned servicemen and women (especially during the Depression).

World War II saw the idea of Australia, as a nation, “arrive” (and also boosted the popularity of Anzac day).

The sense of class and internationalism lost its way under Stalinism and in Australia the Communist Party wrapped itself in the flag of patriotism to fight the fascists. In fact World War II was a repeat of World War I – the clash of two blocs of imperialism.

Australia has always had an imperialist “protector”. This used to be Britain and is now the US. As part of our ruling class’s desire to be the major imperialist power in the region, we have attached ourselves to a powerful ally which will enable us to carry out that role.

To do that we must pay our dues. That is why we have a long history of following our ally into imperialist adventures around the world.

From Sudan in 1885 to Iraq in 2003 we have participated in a large number of foreign wars to help keep the UK and the US on side with our own expansionist project.

So even though Kevin Rudd pulled out of Iraq he is continuing our role in Afghanistan to show to the US his commitment to the alliance and to allow our own role in the region – East Timor, the Solomon islands, PNG for example – to continue.

Gallipoli itself is an example of our ongoing imperialist view of the world. We were part of a force that invaded a country that we had no quarrel with and which did not threaten us.

Anzac day also performs another function.

War is an integral part of capitalism and imperialism. Most people’s initial reaction is to recoil from war and all the horror it brings. Anzac day downplays that horror and makes war acceptable.

It is propaganda to allow the ruling class to call on the next generation of workers to join the war effort if needed.

And it may divert people’s attention away from immediate economic concerns - I may be losing my house or job but at least we diggers are good fighters and I am so proud my son is in Iraq. Or Afghanistan. Or East Timor. Or the Solomon Islands.

Right now there is war going on around the world. It’s the war of the bosses against workers. The dead are many.

According to the Australian Manufacturing Workers’ Union around the world ‘work is more deadly than war, causing up to 2.3 million fatalities a year through related injuries and disease.’

International Workers’ Memorial Day is this Wednesday 28 April.

[thunderchildobs]

Could the mods please clean up this thread and get it back on track to the orginal post.

Brendan

[RobF (Rob)]

I found a documentary which I caught the last 30mins today on TV a great insight into the ANZAC traditions - from both sides. Didnt catch the title. I was always concerned from what I knew of the Gallipoli campaign that many unsound strategic moves had been made.

It was great to hear of the many innovative approaches the Aussies (and English) took including use of air reconnaisance.

We don't have to be proud of war and death, but I feel for all those that died so far away from home. I do believe there is a place for reminding us all what earlier generations fought for. Fortunately most of us find it hard to understand what they endured. Seeing the WWII bullet holes in the Villers-Bretonneux memorial some years ago reminds me that unfortunately people don't always remember.

Thanks for starting the post Dennis, and your obvious maturity whilst keeping it alive. Cheers,

Rob

[RobF (Rob)]

Actually one side of my wife's family was devastated when my wife's great grandfather never came home. We found his name on walls of the VB memorial, but his body was never ever found/identified. My wife's great-grandmother never re-married but spoke of him always, as did her daughter (wife's grandmother).

We visited a few cemetries in the area, and in the one closest to his last known location in action, there are 6 unknown graves. My wife told me today one of those six is now the Unknown solder in Canberra, exumed in the 90s. His sacrifice is remembered and greatly appreciated, but I would never say glorified.

[sn1987a (Barry)]

I stand ready to join all my fellow aussies to fight to the death for 'ol mate Berts right to say anything he likes whether we like it or not. I actually agree with a lot of the sentiments he's expressing here by the way, I've watched with concern the growing of the cult of ANZAC over last few years. I don't like ANZAC day anymore and instead prefer a moment of quiet reflection on Rememberance day. Good on ya Bert for having the guts to say what you think.


Barry

[casstony]

IMHO we should remember and feel sorry for the poor sods who were killed or injured in war, while at the same time being aware that we are generally pawns of the ruling elite (ie. bankers and other multinational executives).

With that in mind I'll do my absolute best to keep my kids from participating in any war - go bush, shift countries, whatever it takes.