First a bit of bio, this is relevant to my questions so bear with me:
I have had an interest in astronomy since my teens, was in a school astronomy club. However, apart from the simplest structures (Orion, Magellanics, Southern Cross, larger planets) I have difficulty finding my way around the night sky, despite some effort with Nortons and various other tools - this kind of pattern perception I have always failed at.
To answer some personal questions posed by Brian Nolan's "General Principles" article:
I'm of medium build with (currently) a reasonable back and moderate strength. I live in a moderately dark sky area of the country but by the ocean. I don't have much sky in my back yard (trees) so I have to travel a few minutes in my small Honda Jazz to find a viewing place. There are no clubs within reasonable distance, and I haven't yet found any viewing buddies in my 900-person town.
Temperamentally I AM easily frustrated, only moderately technically minded, I don't want gadgets and astrophotography, I find the idea of collimation terrifying, I just want to look at cool stuff. I have previously owned a cheap 60mm refractor and a 4" Polaris Refractor (great but long and heavy).
Currently have a 12" Dob (very difficult and scary to move, I find) and a 6" Mak (Black Diamond) on a good alt-az mount.
I have had good experiences with all these but the Dob requires just too much in the way of logistics. I whine about this because when I HAVE used it on the VERY FEW deep space objects I can actually find (i'm pretty much at the Orion nebula level), it has been breathtaking. But fundamentally I am "a plain, unpretentious, “near enough is good enough” kind of guy, someone who wants something to plonk and point, something that gets me star-gazing in under a minute".
What do I want to look at? I want it all. But I would like to be able to FIND more deep-sky objects - nebulae, clusters, galaxies in particular. I enjoy planetary and moon watching very much, but if I had to choose that would be secondary. I realise that wanting something fast to set up, relatively light, and capable of good deep sky stuff is a bit contradictory due to light gathering issues.
For this reason - expanding my repertoire of objects without benefit of good spatial recognition or club assistance - I am considering a GOTO 200mm Mak/Cassegrain type of telescope as a replacement for my other scopes. Money is not too much of a constraint but space in my house definitely is, and a 12" dob plus a 6" Mak is already too much.
I am also considering a pair of 15x70 binoculars, but the issue of FINDING things is still there.
Start off with a chair, an Atlas and 7x50 binoculars. Get to know the 20 brightest stars and star hop from them with binoculars first. http://booko.com.au/9780521173636/Th...dge-Star-Atlas
A 10" Dob fits on the back seat of a car and is a lot easier to move around than a 12".
If you don't want gadgets then adding manual azimuth setting circles to the Dob base and an altitude scale will help to get you into the right part of the sky to find a particular target. For this to work you will need to:
Set the Dob up on level ground
Set the Dob up so it points at True North (not Magnetic North) - buy a sighting compass to make this easier.
Have a planetarium package loaded onto a smart phone, iPod or iPad.
Work out your Lat/Long, time, date and the software will constantly update the Az/Alt for all the targets in the night sky based on your location.
Collimation takes a little time to get comfortable with, but it does become easy. I use a small hole drilled in the centre of the focuser dust cap and a simple laser collimating tool to achieve alignment. It will only take a minute or two when you get used to it.
If you get rid of the 12" Dob you might want it back.
Do you have a planisphere? Mike sells them in the IIS shop (last time I looked). They are a cheap simple tool - turn the disc to match your date and time and the planisphere will show you what is visible where in the sky. You will still need your star charts to find the deepsky stuff, but the planisphere will help to to identify and find the brighter stars. Find a bright star near where you want to go and starhop the rest.
Glen's advice about 7x50 binos is good too. That's how I started and its a great way to learn to find your way around and you don't need a mount like you will with bigger binos. You will always use the 7x50s.
By the sounds of it, I would warn you to be very wary of a GOTO Mak/Cass. For the goto to work with minimal fuss, you need to have it polar aligned. That means you have to be prepared to for all the setup and strip down fiddling about, collimation (because it will shift when you transport the scope) as well as polar aligning.
IMO you'd be better to stick with the 12" dob, learn the sky with the planisphere and 7x50s, and learn to collimate it... the views will be so much better!
My suggestion is to keep an eye on the Icetrades section, find an Argonavis to attach to your dob, the Argonavis is easy to use and you'll easily be able to push to your target of choice.
If money's no object you could just buy a new one with encoders for about $1K.
As Stu pointed out, you really need to master collimation as your views will likely be less than optimal if you don't.
I can relate on the "I just want it to work" philosophy! My first scope (on EQ mount) felt more like a fight then fun. So I didn't do much observing with it.
Learning from the mistakes of my first scope I bought the 10" goto orion scope and with the advice gleaned from these wonderful boards and chatting with the sales staff I was able to do a collimation and afterward I wondered why the hell I was so intimidated by something that is so easy. It takes 5 mins or less with a laser collimator. Important thing to know: if you aren't doing astro work, the collimation doesn't have to be perfect... it all looks awesome!
Keep the dob, just optimise your load/unload and minimise your extras when you go observing to make the setup/pull down easier!
I love my 12" dob but agree it can be a 'pain' to move around. I took the early advice from IIS and installed the azimuth circle on the base, and built a leveling base which is attached to the ground board. I use a good hand truck to move it from the shed to the various viewing points in my yard (see the mod info in Projects and Articles for how to move a dob around).. A good compass and laser line drawer were used to map out true north on my driveway and patio so that I can place the dob in exactly the right position with little work. Just draw a line with a permanent marker and place the north (0 degree) point of your dob circle on the line and adjust the rear 180 degree point to sit on the line in the back, and it will be perfectly setup. Get a digitial inclinemetre with magnetic base (from ebay) to do all your ALt readings for you, just attach it to the top of the tube via the magnetic base.
I now have encoders on my dob, feeding to the Astro Devices Nexus wifi unit and interfaced to Sky Safari Plus running on my Android tablet, this is the ideal low cost 'Pushto' system (for me).
All of these things make the dob much easier to use.
As far as going bush with the 12" dob, it can be a challenge, but if you can get it out to dark skies you won't want to part with it as generally speaking they are the best value you will find in terms of light gathering ability for the $.
Simple, no fiddling, quick easy set up.
Reasonable light gathering aperture.
Easy accurate Goto and tracking.
Compact and easy to store.
Answer=Celestron CPC 9.25 (IMHO)
I previously had the 11inch version (CPC1100). Better light gathering ...But this may be a little heavy for some people. The 9.25 is a nice compromise.
It does not need to be polar aligned in Alt/Az mode (which is default).
It comes with GPS so you do not need to enter any date time lat/long.
It sure sounds like the solution to your question.
(Meade also have similar scopes, but I do not have experience with them)
You live in a nice part of the world. I hope you get these issues sorted.
Norton's is all well and good, but to be honest I get lost in that. Have you got something more basic, like f'rinstance, Wil Tirion's Bright Star Atlas?
What makes you sigh the most? Is it the thought of moving your big scope around, or is it the difficulty of navigating yourself to the things that you want to look at? Either way (and it sounds like both) then your own suggestion of an alt-az GOTO Cassegrain sounds pretty good to me (I suspect a 200 mm Mak will weigh a lot more than a 200 mm SCT). It's probably what I would do. The old 8 inch Meade or Celestron SCT served a generation of amateurs very well, and when GOTO came along it was seventh heaven for quite a long time.
Still, its hard to go backwards in aperture, so if you are attached to your dob, something like an Argo Navis is also a good suggestion. Add a green laser if you can get one.
Or perhaps a GOTO mount to put your existing 6 inch on will solve a lot of your hassles.
Whenever anyone mentions binoculars nowadays (also a good suggestion), I have to put in a plug for image stabilized ones. They have revolutionized how I observe.
Anyway, good luck with it all. Let us know how you get on.
Thanks for so many GREAT replies! Much appreciated...
I hear loud and clear the virtues of hanging onto the 12" dob, and thank you for introducing me to a whole world of setting circles and push-to options that I hadn't even thought of or known about. Will definitely consider the Argo Navis - price seems to be down to about $550 now new, with encoders and BT302B kit - interfaced to my Android tablet. And its Orstrylian! With the Navis, I presume you can move the computer part from scope to scope, so long as each scope has encoders?
I also hear the "simple bright stars chart/planetarium and binoculars"suggestions (and thanks yet again Brian for the suggestion of image stabilised binocs - which ones are you currently using?). My only set of current binocs (inexepensive but reasonable Gerber 7x50) are water-damaged (long story short - I thought they were water proof, went sailing in my prototype outrigger, sank...) so I need to
work out how to clean them, or replace them.
I have had various sliding planeteria over the years but have massive trouble translating them to the night sky - and dark skies make this actually harder as there are so many stars visible (yes I know this is a problem city-dwellers would like to have).
Still interested in go-tos, but I have some questions about weight:
I have found the 12" dob awkward and slippery (especially with dew) to handle by myself. Does anyone who has hefted both 10"+ dobs and similar aperture cassegrains have opinions about how easy they are to handle? Obviously the cassegrains will be heavier at comparable apertures but do they feel more secure and "handleable"? Are they easier/harder to mount on their forks?
I am quite strong so absolute weight is not (yet) a problem, but awkwardness of handling such a delicate object is.
Also I had the impression that Cassegrains require less collimation after handling than dobs - is this true?
Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience.
I move mine around with a soft tyre hand truck that I bought from Supercheap, using the collar packing from the original box, like Mike's design. I find it helps to use a couple of straps to hold it close to the hand truck so it doesn't get away from you. The initial tilt back of the hand truck can be a challenge without strap assistance around the box.
I don't know if Argo Navis has Android interface capability, but Astro Devices Nexus certainly does. Yes the pushto systems can be moved from scope to scope, the only issue might be cable length so get them longer than you need the first time. Be aware that your Alt bearing will require a mod to attach the encoder, the Azi bearing is easy. I have written up the mod to the ALt bearing it's in the Equipment forum (just do a search there) - or you can get Wildcard (Argo Navis) to do it for you at a cost (only if you buy their system).
If it is the Dob you want to stay with, and I would support that, than get a collapsible Dob.
Then instead of handling a full size hot water tank, it will be more like moving an old fashioned rubbish tin. Much easier to handle.
I sold my $4,999 CPC1100 and now have a $999 non-goto 10"collapsible Dob. (Add $700 for the goto model)
In my opiniion, views are better with the Dob, but the CPC did have GoTo and held its collimation faultlessly. (Whereas the DOb should be collimated every outing).
For my Schmidt Cassegrain at least, the Celestron CPC breaks down into two bits: The tripod, and the combined OTA and fork assembly. My CPC1100 OTA fork assembly weighed about 28kg, and to be honest was almost as easy to move around as my collapsible Dob.
Just level the tripod (with built in bubble level) and plonk on the OTA assembly onto the locating pins, tighten, switch on, and you are away.
Optically excellent. Eminently hand-holdable. No stupid button batteries.
Beautiful for birding, too.
I have a pair of Canon 12x36 IS as well, but despite the lower magnification I see significantly more detail with the L series binocular. Once I tried them in the shop I was hooked.
Thanks Brian, Allan and Glen. The binocs sounds amazing. Very interesting to hear a visual comparison between a big CPC and a similar sized DOB, and thanks for the dob dolly article - I have glanced at this before but will review it.
I have also had amazing support from Gary at Argo Navis.
I will now mull all these options, as well as doing some practical observing sessions with an IceInSpace member nearby who has contacted me via this thread.
I've been involved in a few internet forums in various subject areas over the years, but none better than this.
Your story echoes mine. It is a lot of work to get a dobsonian out and when you can only find the same 5 targets, you start to think it was a waste of money. I literally only saw the moon, saturn, jupiter, mars, pleaides and M42 Orion nebula. I mean we had some spectacular views (ice caps on mars!) but it hardly justified the purchase and I felt bad about it.
Anyway, this Cloudy Nights thread totally changed astronomy for me. The first night of trying this method I found 8 Messier objects. With a bit more practice, I can reliably get any object in the sky into the viewfinder. I'm starting to recognise constellations more.
Now I don't mind the effort of getting the 'scope out and collimating because I will actually be able to find things!
The setup cost me $3 at officeworks to print the degree circles for the base, and about $35 to get the digital Wixey angle gauge from Amazon.
Best of luck!
(I just noticed degree circles were mentioned above. Not sure how the IIS method compares, probably much the same! Take a look at both)
Wheelbarrow handles to the base.
A simple roof rack on your car
A set of cheap folding aluminium ramps
The wheelbarrow handles are an easy modification doesn't have to be too flash at first as long as they do the job.
Throw the aluminium folding ramps on the roofrack for traveling.
Best thing I ever did was remove the back seats from my 4WD plenty of room now, probably work for a car as well.
Later on rebuild the base in ply. That will cut out a lot of weight.
Invest in a Glatter laser collimator.
ArgoNavis is a great investment as well
Google, Yahoo Groups, Cloudy nights , IIS are all good sources of ideas for improvements to your particular scope.
Bunnings Warehouse have a round dial level, or inclinometer for about $46.00. You'll find in the hand/power tool section. It has a magnetic base so it will stick onto the OTA. No need to level the scope!
Cheers!
Does anyone who has hefted both 10"+ dobs and similar aperture cassegrains have opinions about how easy they are to handle?
Obviously the cassegrains will be heavier at comparable apertures but do they feel more secure and "handleable"? Are they easier/harder to mount on their forks?
I am quite strong so absolute weight is not (yet) a problem, but awkwardness of handling such a delicate object is.
I had a 10" Dob and I could carry the tube and put in on the back seat in my car, rest in the floor space and a custom base on wheels in the boot. When I sold it, the deal clincher was it had to fit in their car back seat, and it did. But not too small a car as there are limits.
I'm sure a 12" dob and above would be a lot harder to fit.
l now have the Meade 10" LX200GPS and they are a little heavy but manageable. I absolutely love it and it is the reason I moved from the Dob. You should have no problems with setting it up as in ALT/AZ mode, you put the scope on the mount, and do up a single big bolt in the middle. It's only scary the first two times, then it's a piece of cake. If you use a wedge then the wedge simply bolts to the tripod then on the scope, screw in 1 bolt 5 turns in, and this bolt hooks over a u shaped notch on the wedge which holds everything in place so the other 3 bolts can be put in easily, then tighten.
The original boxes these things come in work well for moving the scope to remote locations, but the boxes are a little large fo back seats I think. I have always had station wagons. But custom cases with wheels are a great idea for these and easily fit on the back seat.
These are solid scopes and they don't feel delicate. It's great having the goto on board as these are very accurate in finding objects and keep them in the centre view for you all night. Setup is simple in ALT/AZ and there are even tours of the night sky for you...I have not used these except for once just to see how it worked and it was actually accurate and went to the objects which could be skipped if need be.
As for the manual dob, for me, I got annoyed always chasing objects to keep them in view, and we all can't help ourselves but try a webcam at some stage in it, and even harder to chase. Moons OK though. But I wanted a scope that was a bit of an all rounder so that's I went for the Meade.
I will add that using a wedge on this scope it the best thing as it open the doors to polar align, which is done with a basic compass and free or very cheap PC software. 15 -20min, all going to plan that is. Then you are ready to put any camera on it and start taking pictures. Addition of an off axis guider or seperate cheapy guide scope and more free software and you will be amazed at what you can get done. I put this bit in cause I was not interested in astrophotography at all at first only about 3 years ago, and now I rarely use an eyepiece as the gems I see in the sky, I can now capture in colour pics. If you are interested, check out this website for the pics I have taken. www.redbeardpix.wordpress.com They are ordinary, but show how easy it is to get ordinary photos and it all gets better from there, same equipment, better technique, a few filters, but at this stage I use a Canon 450D not modded, and use no filters in this setup as I have none and will either upgrade to a CCD camera or mod the 450D first.
Also I had the impression that Cassegrains require less collimation after handling than dobs - is this true?
I believe this to be so, but it depends on how much they get moved and knocked, I guess a bit too. Once a year or less for me on the Meade as I am careful when handling it.
To give a perspective of an SCT owner, I own a Celestron CPC925GPS as mentioned by Allan. I am actually getting to the point where the mount is becoming a little limiting for me as I want to star hop and it is not really feasible with that type of mount.
HOWEVER. As a plonk and go scope which is quick and easy to set up and easy to use it is really hard to beat. The hand controller does not take very long to master at all. Setup is as simple as taking out the tripod and setting it up (A couple of minutes work) and then carrying out the fork assembly which the OTA is permanently mounted on and plonking it on the tripod, doing up three captive bolts to secure it and then going on to the rest of the setup.
That is as simple as fitting an eyepiece as I usually leave the diagonal on mine between sessions, plugging in the hand control and a power source, switching it on and running through the alignment routine.
The alignment is quick and simple and involves pointing it at three stars, the first one can be rough centred quickly by releasing the drive clutches and manually pointing, then fine centring it with the hand controller, the second and third stars require the hand controller to be used or the alignment needs to be redone (Which is the limiting factor for me, from then on you have to use the hand control to point it or the alignment is broken and you have to restart)
I know this seems long winded however it takes less time to set up and align than it has taken me to write this! Usually about five minutes between walking out with the tripod to ready to observe, though cooldown time needs to be taken into account. If I really have set it up that quickly I just accept the wobbly views while it cools off.
It is big enough that it has shown me plenty and light enough in its component parts that I do not sigh when thinking about setting it up. At it's last outing we were using it to hunt for photographic objects as the photograper side of the paring was having issues with his mount and goto. We would point his where we reckoned it needed to be, take a test exposure and look at the star patterns then go and look at it visually in mine to see how it was matching up. Don't ask how many times we found the wild duck cluster that night when trying for something else! We did eventually find what he was after.
The big advantage of the goto on a scope like mine is that once aligned, regardless of if you point manually with the hand controller or using the objects lists and letting it poit itself, it tracks away. If the alignement is good it wil keep things in the eyepiece for hours at a time. I have gotten a little rough and ready with my alignments of late but it is still generally pretty good at finding objects and tracking them. The best I have done I aligned it on the first three stars I could see as twilight settled and it was still tracking well and finding objects at 4 in the morning!
). They are a cheap simple tool - turn the disc to match your date and time and the planisphere will show you what is visible where in the sky. You will still need your star charts to find the deepsky stuff, but the planisphere will help to to identify and find the brighter stars. Find a bright star near where you want to go and starhop the rest.
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