Can I go wrong with a Paramount MX?

Floyd · #1 17-02-2013, 10:37 AM

Hello all,

For the past year I've had my eye on the Paramount MX. The fact that a PC is required is not an issue for me as I want the mount for CCD imaging.

I have read a lot of praise for this mount, but a few things keep holding me back. First off - is TheSkyX riddled with bugs? The general impression I get is that TheSkyX has quite a few bugs in it and that makes it difficult to work with. Is this really the case?

How well does TheSkyX work with MaximDL?

Secondly, I understand that while the mechanical finish of the mount is top-notch there are still reports of mounts having an out-of-spec PE. For instance, this thread, in particular, had me worried: http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ight=Paramount

I know that Bisque eventually did fix the problem, but it's a bit worrying that a $8000/9000 mount would have this issues out of the box. I currently have a G11 and while it has never given me any significant issues (besides the occasional refusing to calibrate via the auto guider and loss of subs when crossing the meridian), I would be extremely disappointed if the PMX needs 'tuning' or a worm replacement of some sort as you expect these sort of things with a G11 and not with a top of the line mount.

I have dealt with Bisque and it seems they do indeed reply but it takes them some time to do so. So, my question to Paramount MX owners is that knowing what you know now, would you still purchase a Paramount MX or go the way of AP if you could do it all over again?

Thirdly - will my Starlight Xpress Lodestar work as a autoguider via PHD for the PMX?

brian nordstrom (As avatar) · #2 17-02-2013, 11:13 AM

Nice choice of mount Floyd , and If you do buy one and find it is not up to the job ,,,
,,,

you could always give it to me ??

.
Brian.

Barrykgerdes · #3 17-02-2013, 04:27 PM

I'm Sorry Floyd

They are a great mount but like the old cars, They need to be run in. This takes about two years.

However I can save you all that bother by looking after it for two years while it gets "broken in"

Barry

gregbradley · #4 18-02-2013, 04:00 PM

Hi Floyd,

That thread was by me. I did have some teething troubles with my PMX. But I must say Bisque got on it and handled it for me.

In my case the PE originally was fine. But because they have this 3 way switch system to be able to unlock and lock the axes it requires a complex pin and cam system that appears to be quite sensitive to adjustment to perform properly.

So what can happen is this pin/cam unit was not adjusted properly and it causes the RA axis to slip and grind on the gears (ouch- it makes a horrible sound like your gears just gotten written off!). This happened on my mount several times.

They have a pdf document about how to adjust this pin/cam. The document is well written but unfortunately it is not complete and is missing a few vital steps. So following that document you may or may not achieve success.

In my case it seems the worm did in fact get slightly damaged by this and I started getting a bad bump in my PE causing stars to look like double stars in my images.

To their credit SB sent me a brand new worm to replace the old. I did this and it all worked well except I still had a slight slippage problem (only happened once) and some backlash in the guiding I did not have before. A quick post got the solution which I implemented and it appears to be perfect now.

I see they dropped the price to $7995. That is very competitive.

Would I get one again? Well I love my PME mount, it really is a gem.
PMX so far is not in the same league in that I would regard it as a lovely mount but it may require/may not require some fiddling to make it smooth. I suspect this is all behind SB now as I got one of the first out. Not a good purchasing plan to be the first as the bugs aren't yet full sorted.

The last time I used the Sky X as far as I could tell everything now works and all the bugs that I was encountering (PEC not working and perhaps T-point modelling too hard to get going) are now sorted. Part was an update and part was studying the software more and making sure I was using it correctly. I use CCDsoft and it integrates very well.

You can get a driver for the Lodestar that works with CCDsoft (I used to use Lodestar with CCDSoft and PME) but it does not allow you to use autodarks in autoguiding which you should do with Lodestar.

I think a mature system like AP900 would be tempting next time around but now its working I quite like the PMX. Its very sophisticated and part machine, part software. I think I would especially at $7995. AP900 is more than that isn't it? If it were $9,000 I would lean to pay a tad more and get an AP1200 or whatever their larger unit is now. It would be a bit more but you would be guaranteed 2nd to none performance. AP really is the standard in this hobby. Nobody does it better.

But AP preload PEC into their mounts. That saves some time. PMX has a higher weight capacity than AP900. AP1200 is more the competitor to PMX and it is more expensive. But I have never heard of a complaint about an AP1200 ever. I think you can also buy an upgraded encoder for it to make it sub 1 arc second accurate (unless that's only the AP1600).

I think you are safe getting a PMX now. There are quite a few using them on this site and the images I see using them have beautiful round stars which I associate with SB mounts.

Greg.

tlgerdes (Trevor) · #5 18-02-2013, 04:18 PM

There are only two ways that an MX would be a bad choice

1) You cant afford it, and the bank reposesses it.

2) Your "Lifestyle partner" thinks you cant afford it, and forever will remind you about it and refuses to let you play with it.

CDKPhil · #6 18-02-2013, 04:32 PM

Hi Floyd,
I have had my MX for about one year. I haven't regretted buying it at all.

I was one of the Australian owners who had a faulty worm. Once the problem was isolated SB replaced the worm block and it has be great ever since.

Even though I had to have the worm block replaced I still would buy another SB mount. It has not put me off in the slightest.

I hope SB has implemented better quality controls, so mounts don't go out with faulty worm blocks.

The software is not that buggy. As with any software there are problems but SB seem to resolve them quickly. There are regular daily builds.

There is quite a learning curve with Sky X as there is with any new software, but if I can learn how to use it any one can.

I don't use Maxim DL so I can't comment on that one.

You don't need PHD to guide, Sky X has its own built in guiding software. It is simple to use. ( Direct Guide via USB) wifi coming soon.

You can control your camera within Sky X.

Sky X is the only software I use to capture, guide and control the mount. It will also control my dome when I get around to doing that. For me this is really cool because that means I can run my whole setup on my Mac. I don't need three or four different apps with their own individual problems or a dedicated Windows PC.

Don't take my word for it though, It is a lot of money to hand over. Do your research and comparisons, see if you can organise with someone to have a look at theirs.

I have been able to achieve 10 mins unguided at a focal length of 2541mm.
Thats pretty awesome in my book.

Cheers

Phil

Floyd · #7 18-02-2013, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregbradley

Hi Floyd,

That thread was by me. I did have some teething troubles with my PMX. But I must say Bisque got on it and handled it for me.

Thanks for responding, Greg. Did you find that Bisque responded to you quickly or did they take their time? I'm glad that Bisque got the issue sorted out for you, but I just feel a bit worried because an issue like that should not happen to a $9000 mount.

Quote:

I see they dropped the price to $7995. That is very competitive.

Indeed. That has what gotten me interested. I had my sights set on AP900's successor, but of course AP hasn't really said when that is going to be announced. I love the PMX's features, it seems like a modern and incredibly capable mount. The AP900, in comparison, just feel a bit dated. No through-the-mount cabling and no USB hub on the saddle. It has also has lesser payload capacity than the PMX. On paper the PMX is no doubt superior.

Quote:

Would I get one again? Well I love my PME mount, it really is a gem.
PMX so far is not in the same league in that I would regard it as a lovely mount but it may require/may not require some fiddling to make it smooth. I suspect this is all behind SB now as I got one of the first out. Not a good purchasing plan to be the first as the bugs aren't yet full sorted.

It may or not be behind them, the SB forums do show threads with some folks having issues. The PME was legendary and that was the only reason I was considering a PMX (I don't own an ME, but I have read extensively about it and it seems that really was a great mount!).

Quote:

I think a mature system like AP900 would be tempting next time around but now its working I quite like the PMX. Its very sophisticated and part machine, part software. I think I would especially at $7995. AP900 is more than that isn't it? If it were $9,000 I would lean to pay a tad more and get an AP1200 or whatever their larger unit is now. It would be a bit more but you would be guaranteed 2nd to none performance. AP really is the standard in this hobby. Nobody does it better.

My main concern is that I really need my next mount to last me at least 10 years. I know if I buy the AP900 today it would still be supported a decade later. I would love an AP1600, but it's a bit out of my league and it is also quite large. I need the mount to be portable.

I would get an AP1200 used (that was such a great size, why did AP have to go and discontinue it?!) but buying used also has it's issues. I am in a country with barely any astro gear and if I buy used online the seller usually is a bit concerned as well. Retailers and manufacturers are usually more understanding.

I guess it boils down to: do you folks feel the AP900 is a good value - even if it's replaced this (or next) year? It is, by all accounts, a stable platform on which one can rely on. Remote use is of no concern.

Floyd · #8 18-02-2013, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CDKPhil

I was one of the Australian owners who had a faulty worm. Once the problem was isolated SB replaced the worm block and it has be great ever since.

Even though I had to have the worm block replaced I still would buy another SB mount. It has not put me off in the slightest.

I hope SB has implemented better quality controls, so mounts don't go out with faulty worm blocks.

Thank you your response. I honestly do hope SB has implemented a better QC. I have a question - did you not feel that a $9000 mount shouldn't have had to have it's worm replaced?

Threads like this don't fill me with confidence: http://www.bisque.com/sc/forums/t/16...px?PageIndex=3

CDKPhil · #9 18-02-2013, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floyd

Thank you your response. I honestly do hope SB has implemented a better QC. I have a question - did you not feel that a $9000 mount shouldn't have had to have it's worm replaced?

Absolutely!
I was not expecting to have any problems with a mount of this dollar value, nor should I.
It is a shame that a few others shared in this experience. It has put a tarnish on a superbly engineered mount.
Definitely factory testing would have caught the problem before it ever went public.

This story could have easily gone the other way, but Software Bisque stepped up to the plate and did the right thing without complaint or accusations. Now my mount operates well within spec and I am very happy with it.

If I could do this all again knowing what I know now, I would still choose the MX over any other mount in its price range. I really enjoy using it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floyd

Threads like this don't fill me with confidence: http://www.bisque.com/sc/forums/t/16...px?PageIndex=3

I have been following this thread, and I hope this persons issues are promptly sorted out.

gregbradley · #10 18-02-2013, 09:05 PM

SB responded fairly quickly and I did not expect them to send a new worm without my asking. So that was nice. It does perform better than the earlier worm which also originally was very good.

At the time I was peeved but in hindisght this is a small industry with boutique producers and high tech equipment. I think for the price, its capability, its integration with software and T-point modelling etc you are able with some work on your part, have a top class mount that should last you a long time. You may or may not depending on current QC have to do some fiddling. Whilst I don't agree with it, this is an unfortunate thing in our hobby that you are often required to fiddle with expensive gear to make it optimum.

For $7995 its a lot of mount for your buck and you get a lot of sophisticated software with it as well. Its currently the best value I know of. What else is there in that league for $7995 including several softwares? (SB will give you CCDsoft for free as well if you are not using it currently).

Greg.

avandonk · #11 18-02-2013, 09:32 PM

My PMX worked flawlessly out of the box. It was only my own inexperience with the software etc that made it difficult. Once I figured out how to do a T-Point calibration the goto was seven seconds of arc rms in error. With my camera that is about two pixels! Aligning the the mount accurately to the SCP was a doddle.

When doing test exposures of even a few minutes without guiding there is no sign of tracking error.

I have flexure that shows up far more than tracking. In fact I estimate that the tracking error with guiding is less than one second of arc. There are no nasty jumps due to gears as the servo motors control the worms with ribbed belts. There is just no backlash!

I control the mount remotely from inside my house where it is free of cold mozzies and darkness.

This mount lets me get on with what I want to do. I wish I had a mount like this years ago.

bert

PRejto (Peter) · #12 19-02-2013, 05:29 PM

I have a PMX and was in the early first group of owners.

Yes, I would do it again, even though for me the learning curve is steep, and at times is still steep, even after a year. But then I came to the mount without prior experience of any kind in terms of high end mounts, computer control, etc.

My worm has been perfect out of the box, and I've suffered zero slippage even with my 12" CAT mounted. Uncorrected PE is under 2 arc sec!

I don't know enough about AP mounts but I don't think they have absolute encoders. I love the fact that I can begin using my MX literally in a few minutes of starting up. Once the mount moves from parked to home position no further adjustment is necessary to begin using a previously stored pointing model...in other words no synch is required at all. I have used the same model for months. And these super models give fantastic polar alignment information and terrific pointing, and data collection for T-Point is fully automated. You can decide to run a 400 point all sky model, start it and walk away until it is done. Amazing! The new upgraded camera plugin is really becoming sophisticated. The guiding screen is excellent and dithering is promised shortly. Bottom line is I can't imagine you wouldn't be thrilled with this mount, and from my experience on the SB forum, if you have an equipment problem, you will get help and the Bisque brothers will do right by you.

Peter

Logieberra (Logan) · #13 23-02-2013, 01:45 AM

'''The fact that a PC is required is not an issue for me as I want the mount for CCD imaging'''.

Even that is changing! They will soon release wifi control of MX and ME2 mount, via separately purchased wifi unit, over mac, win, iphone/ipad/ipad mini (android eventually?) and for those handheld devices, via a unique version of TheSkyX to suit.

I, for one, love SBs novel approach to all this stuff. Cool company and constantly on the move and, in my experience, really nice people! Can't go wrong with SB.

Logieberra (Logan) · #14 23-02-2013, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRejto

I have a PMX and was in the early first group of owners.

Yes, I would do it again, even though for me the learning curve is steep, and at times is still steep, even after a year. But then I came to the mount without prior experience of any kind in terms of high end mounts, computer control, etc.

My worm has been perfect out of the box, and I've suffered zero slippage even with my 12" CAT mounted. Uncorrected PE is under 2 arc sec!

I don't know enough about AP mounts but I don't think they have absolute encoders. I love the fact that I can begin using my MX literally in a few minutes of starting up. Once the mount moves from parked to home position no further adjustment is necessary to begin using a previously stored pointing model...in other words no synch is required at all. I have used the same model for months. And these super models give fantastic polar alignment information and terrific pointing, and data collection for T-Point is fully automated. You can decide to run a 400 point all sky model, start it and walk away until it is done. Amazing! The new upgraded camera plugin is really becoming sophisticated. The guiding screen is excellent and dithering is promised shortly. Bottom line is I can't imagine you wouldn't be thrilled with this mount, and from my experience on the SB forum, if you have an equipment problem, you will get help and the Bisque brothers will do right by you.

Peter

The newer AP mounts do have absolute encoders as a $3k per axis option on the 1600GTO 'sweet 16' and 3600GTO 'el capitan'. Our MX does not have this option, and may never, we can only hope, so you must be referring to its homing sensors on each axis. And, just to confuse this issue even more, abs encoders will be an option on the ME2! But, like the AP, at around $3K per axis

PRejto (Peter) · #15 23-02-2013, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logieberra

The newer AP mounts do have absolute encoders as a $3k per axis option on the 1600GTO 'sweet 16' and 3600GTO 'el capitan'. Our MX does not have this option, and may never, we can only hope, so you must be referring to its homing sensors on each axis. And, just to confuse this issue even more, abs encoders will be an option on the ME2! But, like the AP, at around $3K per axis

Yes, sorry...I was certainly confusing homing sensor and absolute encoders!

Paul Haese · #16 23-02-2013, 10:53 AM

I don't own a PMX but have a PME. As I understand it the PMX is a lot more advanced in design and from what I have seen the images are just as great guiding and pointing wise as the PME. Even without this consideration even if the PMX were as good as a PME I would say you have nothing to worry about. Software Bisque are good with back up with a new purchase and their gear is easy to service. You can't go wrong.

DavidNg (David) · #17 23-02-2013, 01:36 PM

I agree with others here. My PMX works flawlessly, its running TheSkyX is difficult for me, confusing especially for Southern Hemisphere folks at times (should I reverse N/S, E/W, dome geometry parameters, etc ) and sometimes bugged softwares. Despite all that, Yes.. I would by another Software Bisque mount.

frolinmod · #18 24-02-2013, 11:34 AM

When I purchased my first Paramount back in 1999 I had no incompatible excess baggage. No prior software and no prior hardware. At least none that mattered. TheSky was the first planetarium program I had ever used. CCDSoft was the first imaging program, etc. I intentionally purchased a camera that I knew in advance would work with it. I didn't have to fight anything. No cognitive dissonance. No fighting against reality. Everything just clicked. My later upgrade to a PME was equally smooth.

Floyd · #19 24-02-2013, 04:42 PM

Well after reading all the responses here I felt confident in placing my order. I wire transferred the funds on Thursday. I hope they get them soon as I'm getting quite impatient!

I have been reading the manual and the Quick Polar Alignment Method is quite intriging but there is a step that I don't fully understand. On page 69, under step 7, it says

the object should be within 5 degrees of the pole, or, below the pole and within 5 degrees of the meridian.

What does it mean that the object should be within 5 degrees of the pole? Could someone elaborate?

PRejto (Peter) · #20 24-02-2013, 06:52 PM

I'm sure you will get other responses. I asked the same question on the SB Forum a long time ago, as have several others. I cannot say I recall the answer was entirely clear to me. Suffice to say that other responses indicated that picking a star or planet at random pretty much gets a good enough placement of the mount that you can begin to plate solve. Once you get in 6 points, even if you need to do them manually, the pointing will get much more accurate even if the PA is way out. From there you can probably do automated plate solves. Get at least 40 points and run the super model, adjust PA according to recommendations and you should be quite close to PA. From there it is just a case of refinement.

A few more recommendations that you might find helpful. 1. Don't waste a lot of time trying to PA without plate solving. Get the camera working straight off. You can adjust parameters that will increase your chance of plate solving such as allowing larger field searches. The other thing is don't make the exposure too long. I found 5 seconds or so at 2x2 binning just about perfect. 2. Eventually you may get to a point where you are chasing small adjustments in Azimuth and Altitude and seem to be oscillating back and forth. Typical advice is to try adjusting 50% of the recommended adjustment. This may work but seems random. For altitude I had excellent results by using the camera to verify that the mount actually moved the required amount. Use the jog controls (in TSX) to move the scope in the opposite direction the super model requires. That is, if it says to move the altitude down X arc sec, first take a photo before moving the mount. Then move the mount up using the jog control the same amount and take another photo. Finally, physically lower the mount and take a third photo. If the mount moved accurately your third photo should look exactly like photo #1. It's just a question of moving the mount up/down in little adjustments until the photos agree. This method solved the problem completely for me.

Welcome to the club! I'm sure you will be very happy.