Ancient Astronomers of Timbuktu - SBS TWO 1/1/13 19:30

[gary]

SBS TWO tonight 1/1/13 19:30 AEDT

Originally Posted by SBS

Guided by astrophysicist Dr Thebe Medupe, a group of scientists engage in the first exploration of the scientific contents of the great manuscript archives of Timbuktu. As the ancient papers are in grave danger of being destroyed by the ravages of time, the team race against the clock to unlock the mysteries of this incredible library before this valuable history is lost forever in the sands of the Sahara. (From South Africa, in English) (Documentary) (Rpt) G

[Shark Bait (Stu)]

Thanks for the heads up Gary.

I watched this program and although interesting, it started to lose me when they chose the wording for the Sun centred solar system as being the 'currently accepted' model. I stuck with it but had to skip to the sections that actually dealt with Astronomy.

Without doubt, while the Western world (read as 'Christian') was turning itself inside out leaving Science in limbo, the Islamic nations kept Science ticking over. My understanding is that a large amount of their knowledge was translated from Greek texts into their own language. It's a bit of a stretch to think that the Islamic world advanced Astronomy in any meaningful sense. Astronomy was more of a tool used to mark timings for religious events.

The narrative also stated that it would have been 'impossible' for Copernicus and others to have advanced Astronomy without the efforts of Islamic Astronomers and Mathematicians. Once again, this is a big claim that needed to be backed up. In my opinion is wasn't.

Did anyone else watch this show? What did you think of it?

[astroron (Ron)]

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

Thanks for the heads up Gary.

I watched this program and although interesting, it started to lose me when they chose the wording for the Sun centred solar system as being the 'currently accepted' model. I stuck with it but had to skip to the sections that actually dealt with Astronomy.

Without doubt, while the Western world (read as 'Christian') was turning itself inside out leaving Science in limbo, the Islamic nations kept Science ticking over. My understanding is that a large amount of their knowledge was translated from Greek texts into their own language. It's a bit of a stretch to think that the Islamic world advanced Astronomy in any meaningful sense. Astronomy was more of a tool used to mark timings for religious events.

The narrative also stated that it would have been 'impossible' for Copernicus and others to have advanced Astronomy without the efforts of Islamic Astronomers and Mathematicians. Once again, this is a big claim that needed to be backed up. In my opinion is wasn't.

Did anyone else watch this show? What did you think of it?

Kept falling asleep,
Surely it may be a mute point as the rebel army is destroying anything of historical value in the town, so a lot of what we saw in the show may no longer exist
Cheers

[Shark Bait (Stu)]

Originally Posted by astroron

Kept falling asleep,
Surely it may be a mute point as the rebel army is destroying anything of historical value in the town, so a lot of what we saw in the show may no longer exist
Cheers

It was a long stretch between the parts that dealt with Astronomy. I recorded it as I tend to fall asleep in front of the TV as well.

I should add a correction to my earlier post. When referring to the Heliocentric Solar System, the narrator's words were 'todays accepted model'. It was an odd choice of wording all the same. Who were they trying to avoid offending?

I didn't know that specific area was threatened by militia / civil unrest. I hope that the keepers of those old manuscripts have taken action to keep them safe.

[gary]

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

When referring to the Heliocentric Solar System, the narrator's words were 'todays accepted model'. It was an odd choice of wording all the same. Who were they trying to avoid offending?

Hi Stu,

We did a double-take there too.

I didn't know that specific area was threatened by militia / civil unrest. I hope that the keepers of those old manuscripts have taken action to keep them safe.

Unfortunately it iwas recently added to the UNESCO list of World Heritage sites
in danger.

Some background here -
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...tics-cultures/

Not a safe place to travel to at the moment -
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa...115353560.html

Some manuscripts are being secreted away -
http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/smar...s-manuscripts/

The UN Security Council passed a resolution last month calling for African troops
to assist the Mali govt.

[Scorpius51 (John)]

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

The narrative also stated that it would have been 'impossible' for Copernicus and others to have advanced Astronomy without the efforts of Islamic Astronomers and Mathematicians. Once again, this is a big claim that needed to be backed up. In my opinion is wasn't.

This was perhaps a reference to the fact that Copernicus and others used the voluminous astronomical records and observations made by the Arabic observers to build on their own observations.

While most Arabic observers were perhaps using their own observations as a means to an end - time of prayer, religious celebration (as did the Christians, too), etc, the science-motivated Copernican observers wanted answers to more fundamental questions of of why, how & when. To do this they needed more data, so they relied on what was available.

[gary]

Originally Posted by Scorpius51

This was perhaps a reference to the fact that Copernicus and others used the voluminous astronomical records and observations made by the Arabic observers to build on their own observations.

Perhaps ironically, many of the Greek texts were forgotten in western Europe
during the dark ages and were rediscovered by Europeans by way of Arabic
translations found in Spain after the Muslim expulsion in 1492.

It is believed Ptolemy lived in Alexandria which was hundreds of years later
captured by the Arabs in 641 AD. Hence the Arabic translations of Greek
texts surfacing in western Europe around the 1100's.

Copernicus made his own observations, without of course the aid of a telescope,
which would only be invented nearly a hundred years later.

Here is a link to a 1986 Scientific American article written by Owen Gingerich on Islamic astronomy -
http://faculty.kfupm.edu.sa/PHYS/als..._astronomy.htm

[Scorpius51 (John)]

Very true, Gary. The Arabic astronomers did rely on the earlier work of the Greeks.

[Shark Bait (Stu)]

Originally Posted by astroron

Kept falling asleep,
Surely it may be a mute point as the rebel army is destroying anything of historical value in the town, so a lot of what we saw in the show may no longer exist
Cheers

The media have been covering the situation in Mali over the past few weeks. The French led military forces have pushed the rebels out of the heavily populated areas but not before they burnt a large number of very old texts.

It was a sorry sight to see the pile of smouldering texts from Timbuktu in the news footage. Groups which hold extreme ideologies seem determined to destroy history. Very sad.

[gary]

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

The media have been covering the situation in Mali over the past few weeks. The French led military forces have pushed the rebels out of the heavily populated areas but not before they burnt a large number of very old texts.

It was a sorry sight to see the pile of smouldering texts from Timbuktu in the news footage. Groups which hold extreme ideologies seem determined to destroy history. Very sad.

Hi Stu,

I have been following that as well.

Though it was heartening to see Mali and French troops cheered as they liberated the city -
http://media.smh.com.au/national/sel...u-3991107.html

it was sad to learn that thousands of manuscripts had been lost when the previous
occupiers torched a library -
http://www.smh.com.au/world/frenchle...129-2dhls.html

This was made all the more poignant after only having seen the documentary this
thread is about a few weeks earlier. The desert environment and the dedication of
many generations had helped preserve these texts for hundreds of years.

Originally Posted by Marc Bastian, Sydney Morning Herald, AFP

However, fears soared for the city's cultural heritage when a building housing tens of thousands of manuscripts from the ancient Muslim world and Greece was set aflame.

Mayor Ousmane confirmed the fire at the Ahmed Baba Centre for Documentation and Research, which housed between 60,000 and 100,000 manuscripts, according to Mali's culture ministry.