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Old 10-01-2013, 07:46 PM
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lazjen (Chris)
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Introduction and Equipment Questions...

Hello everyone. I'm a software developer by trade and generally muck around a lot with computers (assembling my own, etc).

I've been lurking for a little while on this forum, reading bits and pieces for here and elsewhere thinking it might reduce the confusion a bit! At times I think it does, but other times - maybe not.

My main aim is to dive into astrophotography more - trying to cover as many fields as possible although I'll probably skip Solar for a long time. I've dabbled over time with my old Canon EOS 30D camera on a basic fixed tripod, but I'd like to go beyond its limitations and do a lot more.

I'm in the process of putting together a shopping list of gear that I'd like to get. While I believe I have the funds for my budget, I'm not planning to buy everything at once. I'm hoping it will be possible to incrementally add the items and get familiar with each as I go. Whether this is feasible or not, I'm sure someone will let me know.

As I'm a computer geek, I'll be leaning towards a heavily computer based/automated system for this setup (I'm aiming to use Linux and Android only if possible - I've (mostly) got suitable hardware for this already). I'm quite used to fiddling around with hardware and software to get things done, so this side of things will not be daunting to me at all.

My current plan is to get a new camera first. It will be a Canon EOS as I've already got a number of lens to use. I'm leaning towards a 60Da at this time as it seems to be tailored for Astrophotography. I notice the 6D is a similar price though with a newer system in it - but isn't tailored specifically for Astrophotography (would it need to be modified?).

From there, I was thinking of getting an equatorial mount (maybe a Skywatcher NEQ6 Pro?) so I can take longer exposures with the tracking - however do I need a telescope on it to do polar alignment? Can I set it up with the camera only?

Assuming the above is possible I'll be able to get used to it and mess around with the computer side of things for control, navigation, etc, before progressing to a scope.

For the scope, I've read enough to convince myself that a refractor is the way to go. Still deciding on what, but my "on paper" favourite at this time is the Skywatcher Black Diamond ED120. Good size, reasonable F ratio, etc.

While I've mentioned some specific items above, I'm open to suggestions to other options. I also know there's some extra "kit" required - adaptor from camera to telescope, power supply, anti-dew, etc.

I've read about auto-guiding as well - I suspect that would be the next step after getting familiar with the scope, yes?

Finally, while I live in Brisbane, the wife and I do a bit of traveling around especially to Girraween National Park. I was there just recently and while there was a limited viewing window because of the clouds, what I saw was fantastic and the place was quite dark. I plan to go back there with whatever setup I get to hopefully get some decent shots.
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Old 11-01-2013, 11:19 AM
Wavytone
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Hi Chris,

1. Scope. A fast ED refractor is a good choice, but a reflector is even better.

Current CCD cameras are very good in the blue-violet, as well as going beyond red into infra-red - well beyond what you can see visually at both ends of the spectrum. If you choose a refractor corrected for visual use, images taken with it may not appear so sharp due to the chromatic aberration at these extremes (hence why many DSLR's have a filter to block infra-red). For pure visual use, it would be quite sufficient if the useable range extended only from 440 to 650
nm, but for imaging you'll capture better images - and more photons - in a scope corrected for the spectral range from 420 - 1000 nm.

Fast 6"F8 Cde achromat: 550 - 650 nm
Long 6"F15 CeF achomat: 480 - 650 nm
Fast 6"F9 ED doublet: 450 - 650 nm
Fast 6" fluorite doublet: 420 - 1000 nm
Fast 6" FPL52/53 triplet: 380 - 1000 nm
Fast 6" fluorite triplet: 360 - 1000nm

Better still are reflectors such as the Vixen VC200L http://www.vixenoptics.com/reflectors/VC200L.htm or the GSO RC Astrographs which offer better achromatism, but there are issues keeping these optics well collimated.

An ED refractor is a good compromise, though.

2. Camera. If you are serious - and I'd say anyone looking to outlay $5K or more on the scope and mount definitely must be - DON'T buy another DSLR. Instead buy an astronomical imager in which the sensor is thermoelectrically cooled, this will give far better results than any DSLR can. The downside is that you will need a laptop to operate the sensor and collect the images. Examples:

QSI 683wsg (see www.Bintel.com.au)
Orion Parsec 10100C (also from Bintel)
Apogee http://www.ccd.com/alta.html
Starlight Xpress http://www.sxccd.com/products

... just to name a few.

In particular look for one that has an internal autoguider capability (some do, many don't), this is used to keep the camera accurately pinpointed on the target to eliminate any drift including:

a) flexure between the optical axis of the camera and the mount,
b) the residual misalignment of the mount on the south celestial pole,
c) periodic errors in the gear train, and
d) atmospheric refraction (effectively modifies the required equatorial tracking rate slightly).

You cannot correct for all these any other way, and a DSLR will not provide the autoguiding function.

Lastly, when choosing the combination of sensor (in a DSLR or one of these imagers) plus telescope, ideally you should choose a sensor in which the spacing of the pixels is well-matched to the focal ratio and the size of the Airy disk of the telescope. Just hooking up a big fat DLSR body to a telescope and hoping for the best is not going to be ideal. For example, if I wanted to shoot deep sky stuff (galaxies and nebulae) with a fast f/4 Newtonian I would choose a rather different sensor than one to use to shoot hi-resolution images of the moon and planets on the back of my f/15 Maksutov.

There are other people here in IIS that can clarify this better.

3. Alternative: if you really want to use a DSLR or an imaging head without the autoguider capability, many amateurs add a small guide telescope to the side of the main imaging telescope, fitted with a cheap autoguider head. Any cheap 80mm refractor will be fine for this, and you can find some autoguiders listed on some of the websites above.

4. Mount. An NEQ6 is on my shopping list too. With most of the Skywatcher mounts (the EQ series) yes you will need a scope mounted on the dovetail to do the initial polar alignment of the mount. The alignment procedure involves a couple of things which you can't do with your camera. Basically the mount is aligned or calibrated by pointing the telescope at two or more bright stars whose positions are known to the guiding system, and for this to work well there are a few assumptions:

a) that the telescope optical axis is accurately perpendicular to the declination axis,

b) that the telescope optical axis is accurately parallel to zero degrees of declination as defined on the dec axis either by a scale, a shaft encoder, or by a physical mark on the mount (often referred to as a "zero position" for most mounts);

c) that the telescope has an eyepiece allowing the chosen stars to be accurately centred in the field of view, ideally to 0.1 degree or so - a magnification around 30X and optionally crosshairs will do fine.

d) ideally, the stars are chosen with 1 low in the east or west (to check the the azimuth of the polar axis) and 1 overhead (to check the altitude of the polar axis)

These are not so easily accomplished with a camera and lens, and even "seeing" a star through a DSLR isn't easy for a star overhead (usually a neckbreaker). You could do this easily by slipping an eyepiece and star diagonal into the back of the refractor, or alternatively add any cheap 60mm refractor on the side.

5. As for other kit...

a) Depending on the optics of the scope you may need a field flattener. Many telescopes have a curved (spherical) focal plane which means that images on a flat sensor may not be perfectly focussed all over the sensor, especially if you are using a large sensor. An image flattener is a lens placed in front of the imager that corrects for this, but you will need to find one that matches your 'scope (buying any flattener at random may make things worse).

b) I'd add a SkyFi unit so the whole lot - camera and mount - can be operated wirelessly from a laptop and/or iPad/iPhone.

Last edited by Wavytone; 11-01-2013 at 01:42 PM.
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Old 11-01-2013, 06:55 PM
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lazjen (Chris)
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Wavytone,

Thanks for the extensive reply for me to digest - my mind has imploded.

I had been concentrating my research and reading on using DSLR (and hence a refractor scope that's generally recommended as the best choice for it) as that's basically what started the whole ball rolling. Therefore I didn't bother with the CCD camera side of things. Time to re-evaluate and understand the options you've shown.

I have zero problems with the concept of using a laptop to operate and collect as I fully expected to get to that position anyway. So that's not a problem for me concerning using a CCD camera.

I'll be exploring the internal autoguider versions in more detail - they sound ideal without needing extra kit.

Wrt reflectors: This whole setup will be mobile. About the only place it'll never really get setup is in my backyard (there's a streetlight right outside our place) except while I learn to assemble/use it - so it'll be packed and transported to more suitable locations for real use. Would this mean I'm likely to need to collimate the reflector more often? Is this a difficult or time-consuming process?

I note the comments on the mount. I'll ensure I get the scope at the same time. This should not be a problem.

Field flattener: yes. I remember reading about this and knew it would have to be on the list if I was getting a refractor.

SkyFi: I had already stumbled onto this while looking at the various interface options. I recently got a Nexus 7 as well, so I'm probably going to buy SkySafari to get with it - so this will be an option to integrate with the system.

Again, thanks for the reply. I'm off to read up on the CCDs and reflectors.
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Old 15-01-2013, 08:21 AM
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lazjen (Chris)
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After a lot of reading and research I've come to the conclusion that to do AP to a level that I would be satisfied with is beyond my current means (not just finances).

So I've put the brakes on for now. I'll probably just upgrade my DSLR at this time to take better twilight/night landscape shots.
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Old 16-01-2013, 08:02 AM
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ZeroID (Brent)
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Rather than trying to leap in boots and all as you first premised how about starting from the easy side of Astrophotography. You say you'll take twilight/night landscape shots, why not also look into star trails and widefeild for minmal investment on a Polarie tracker (or barndoor) as Mike has been doing. There have been some awesome shots of the Milky Way and LMC\SMC shown on here done with minimal effort and it would add another dimension to your landscapes.
It is also the best starting place if you want to eventually develop your skills to astrophotgraphy one day.
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Old 16-01-2013, 06:50 PM
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lazjen (Chris)
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I've done the star trails and wide field shots with some limited success - that was enough for me to know that I needed to improve my setup more to go further.

I poorly worded my initial post - although I was getting a "shopping list" together, I didn't plan on buying anything until I saw what people were doing with their gear - hopefully being able to see firsthand what I might be getting. Another reason for the list was to gauge financial budget and to determine major holes in expected items or knowledge - and boy, did that work in a big way for the latter.

The reply and PMs I've received, plus the extra reading and research I've done because of it made me reconsider things - especially the assumptions I've been using.

So while I may still get a new DSLR (our current one is over 10 yrs old and there's other reasons besides better night shots to get a new one anyway), I'll get out and see people's gear being setup and in action - and I now have a better idea of what I'll be looking for when I do it. Plus I'll read and research some more (and probably stash away a few more pennies too :p ).
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Old 17-01-2013, 02:10 PM
LAW (Murphy)
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Don't be too put off by the amount of gear that's available, astrophotography can be deceptively cheap. The only gear I regularly use is an 8" Newtonian on an old EQ6 (<$1000 all up) with my DSLR in prime focus.

With good polar alignment I've had round stars in 2 minute exposures without a guider. and although a CCD chip would be better my 550D isn't bad for noice, you will need to take some "Dark" exposures for DeepSkyStacker but there's nothing wrong with 2 minute exposures at ISO 6400.
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Old 18-01-2013, 08:54 AM
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lazjen (Chris)
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I have a healthy respect for the costs involved, not blind fear, thankfully.

I've played a bit with DeepSkyStacker, but I can't get enough "good" data with my current camera to do much. I'm sure there's hours of "entertainment" just in using this tool alone.
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