Civil Debate

[rat156]

Hi All,

This one stems from the, now closed, Speed Kills thread.

Any mention of that particular cause and I will ask the mods to close this one as well, so keep on topic.

The topic is "Why can't we have a civil debate over a contentious issue without reverting to name calling and insulting behaviour?"

There are several topics that pop up from time to time here that usually relatively quickly revert to name calling and insults. Seven pages for the aforementioned thread (the thread that cannot be named, perhaps I'll just call it Voldemort from now on).

I have been contributing to these, and usually arguing my point somewhat vociferously, but always trying to keep things nice. The whole point of debating these points is to try to convince the opposing point of view of the validity of your argument, without the whole lot devolving into a Japanese Parliament.

The thread gets locked and someone gets the last word, right or wrong. Then one of the protagonists starts a new thread sometime later and the whole thing happens again.

Cheers
Stuart

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

Originally Posted by rat156

Hi All,

This one stems from the, now closed, Speed Kills thread.

Any mention of that particular cause and I will ask the mods to close this one as well, so keep on topic.

The topic is "Why can't we have a civil debate over a contentious issue without reverting to name calling and insulting behaviour?"

There are several topics that pop up from time to time here that usually relatively quickly revert to name calling and insults. Seven pages for the aforementioned thread (the thread that cannot be named, perhaps I'll just call it Voldemort from now on).

I have been contributing to these, and usually arguing my point somewhat vociferously, but always trying to keep things nice. The whole point of debating these points is to try to convince the opposing point of view of the validity of your argument, without the whole lot devolving into a Japanese Parliament.

The thread gets locked and someone gets the last word, right or wrong. Then one of the protagonists starts a new thread sometime later and the whole thing happens again.

Cheers
Stuart

Mainly because both sides are unwilling to give a little and see the subject from the others side while people are unwilling to do this you will never get polite debate.

[iceman (Mike)]

Unfortunately I don't see this thread having the conclusion you want either.

It comes up all the time, whether the thread is about politics, religion, global warming, and (it seems), speed limits.

The root cause, as far as I can tell, is exactly what you said:

is to try to convince the opposing point of view of the validity of your argument

In my experience, you can never, and will never, change someone's point of view by debating it on online forums.

All that ends up happening, is people continually posting their own point of view over and over again, in increasing and escalating ways, until it starts getting personal.

I've seen it happen so many times over the past 5.5 years.

[pgc hunter]

human nature. There is no such thing as a "civil" debate.

[supernova1965 (Warren)]

The biggest thing that stops civil debate is if people don't have respect for each other

[casstony]

My wife tells me men seek solitary hobbies, such as peering at little things through telescopes, due to their lesser social skills than women. (she's half joking, but only half). So maybe it's no surprise that we act like children at times. It's a good thing we have moderators here to smack our bottoms

[AstralTraveller (David)]

I see many debates that degenerate because the issue in dispute isn't well defined. Look at many of the locked threads and you will see that the protagonists often appear to misunderstand each other and read things into statements which aren't there.

I think it is best at the outset to find the common ground and then move on to disagreements. If that can be done it generally turns out that there is less disagreement than it may initially appear. Of course that approach is much easier when there are just a few people talking in a room than it is in an on-line forum. But if we could all just try to take that approach I think there would be far less flaming.

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by rat156

...Then one of the protagonists starts a new thread sometime later and the whole thing happens again.

Cheers
Stuart

Fair 'nuff. ...I'll probably have nothing else to say on *that* subject until another foreign expert with the evidence to back his claims, pops up in Oz...
......and shows once again our systems can be misguided by PC spin, rather than good analysis.

[TrevorW]

Beg to differ

without considering that at the end of the day does it really matter that much ??

I refuse to get angry with people whom I don't know that well but respect for their common interest

[sheeny (Al)]

Originally Posted by iceman

In my experience, you can never, and will never, change someone's point of view by debating it on online forums.

I have to agree.

I enjoy a good solid argument face to face, and always try to enjoy them with mutual respect. It is healthy, and it can be fun when it is done with respect, and but awful if someone forgets that.

Unfortunately, online communications are so limiting! Different people can interpret the same written words in different ways, because the inflection or vocal tone or body language or facial expression (or even hand gestures) of the writer is not transmitted with the words. So often times online, the true meanings get confused and war breaks out. I have seen the same things on a couple of forums I used to run before I joined IIS.

I try to avoid a lot of the threads that are likely to turn sour here, but sometimes it gets the better of me and I do comment. It's a shame online debates are not more successful, but my experience is like Mike's, mostly they end up bitter and twisted, and I think it's because the written word is not a good way to debate.

Al.

[JimmyH155]

You are all fanatics
Quote from Winston Churchill "A fanatic is one who won't change his mind and won't change the subject."

[taminga16 (Greg)]

Hi-jacking of threads is not a long way from what occured in the Speed thread and there is a perfect example here,
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...hlight=compass

Some peoples minds are like concrete, throughly mixed and firmly set.

Greg.

[Octane (Humayun)]

omggg Greg is an iPhone hater. Let's all get him!

H

[kustard (Simon)]

There is a particular image that has been floating around the internet for some time now about the merits of arguing on the internet. I wont post if up or make a direct link to it as may offend but if you do a simple "arguing on the internet" search on Google it's the first image link to come up.

As non-pc as it is, it pretty much sums up my thoughts and so I usually try to avoid "discussing" on any forum where you don't have at least face to face interaction.

I understand if the mods delete this post if it compromises the T&C's of the IIS forums.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by iceman

All that ends up happening, is people continually posting their own point of view over and over again, in increasing and escalating ways, until it starts getting personal. I've seen it happen so many times over the past 5.5 years.

Staying civil is another issue though. People might get frustrated but they still have the choice to walk away and not start name calling. Maybe if any post containing any is deleted on the fly then the poster will get the message eventually and the thread can go on?

[taminga16 (Greg)]

Originally Posted by Octane

omggg Greg is an iPhone hater. Let's all get him!

H

I am not opposed to iPhone's, but they are a bloody long way from a practical compass!

Greg.

[PeterM]

I suppose it could be asked why the need for a general chat section now that Mike has pretty much covered all areas of astronomical interest that anyone could ever hope for with the new layout (and a fine job at that).
This would really leave nowhere for anything other than astro talk, and I think that's what most would want?
It is too easy to get drawn in, and yes I am guilty. So I say try an experiment and remove "chat section" completely for say 30 days and see what happens, then consider its total removal . As Mike has pointed out he has seen this so many times over the last 5.5 years, so why bother with the heartache, the angst and time that the mods need to keep it civil only to have to lock threads anyway? Keep Ice In Space heavily focused on Astronomical areas, this might make us unique and far more relevant. If someone really wants an astro chat group then by all means start one up - but not here.
PS. Why not poll the members on this?
PeterM.

[xelasnave]

What I can never fathom is why folk attack the personality or the character of their opponent rather than attack the premise of the other persons argument.

If one is right on a particular matter what does it matter if they have personal traits that their opponent find irritating...why point to their character as flawed when it is the matter under discussion that is the only relevant aspect of the discussion... It is sad to see that so many folk can be so arrogant so as to believe they have all the answers... This must be seen as their personal problem... maybe due to being too young or too old but nevertheless devoid of wisdom one would think.

Anyways I like the view that there is no point to taking anything as personal..generally if someone is rude and seeks to attack the character rather than the issue under discussion they would take that appraoch on any matter with any other person and so it is not personal.. just as they may direct unkind words at you so they will do with another who seeks to hold a view with which they do not agree ..such an approach is the way they act with others and it is not you they single out...they are simple rude to everyone and probably there is no human that measures up to their elevated opinion of their most wonderful selves...

If someone attempts to insult you consider this...they are either right or wrong and you are either right or wrong... why let such a trivial thing upset you... if they are right ..so what..if you are right be humble not to rub it in someones face.

However the great thing about iceinspace is notwithstanding the minor episodes of name calling etc in general all views are received reasonably well ...

AND if one gets a thread locked ..so what..is it so hard to live with the fact you failed to get the last word in...get over it move on..no big deal here.

AND I am sorry if I have not always lived upto my convictions expressed above but feel free to point out where my words do not match my deeds as I can take no offence from the truth.


alex

[Ric]

Is this the right thread for an argument?

(apologies to Monty Python)

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Originally Posted by Ric

Is this the right thread for an argument?

(apologies to Monty Python)

I've told you once already!!