Planetary viewing - are we serious about it?

davidpretorius · #1 22-11-2005, 02:50 PM

Ok,

I have in my mind to get a very good high power ep. Straight of my tongue rolls "for planetary viewing" But i am now pulling myself up short!

My collimation is now as good as it has ever been
I am getting the cooling of my primary sorted out.

Given normal seeing conditions, how often am i really going to be able to do a great planetary eyepiece justice???

At the moment in my 10" x 1250fl newt, on good seeing nights i can see dark smudges on mars with my series 500 6.5mm and 12.5mm. I have even barlowed the 12.5 and the 6.5mm with a 2.4x and played around.

What other detail am i really going to be able to now see with a $400 eyepiece. Yes contrast will be better etc, but extra detail???

I am going to be continuing to image and hence "see" the detail thru the computer.

I really enjoy the views i get at the moment ie there are the rings of saturn, i might be able to make out the grs with jupiter next time, but i don't think i will sit there studying and trying to make out detail that is readily available from the imaging???

I think an eyepiece that can study ( and yes dave 47 tuc i mean to study) with a 7mm and 11mm the guts of a galaxy, or cluster is more useful. I can still use it for planets?

I know i must be talking myself round in circles, but it did occur to me after Dave47tuc talk about really looking for minutes and minutes at an object. I then thought, how often will anyone be able to study a planet given the advances of planetary imaging???

It is easy to say "planetary viewing", but given scope size, no tracking, seeing conditions, is it really something that it really out of reach???

The difference a great eyepiece makes on dso's is very noticeable, but is there that same jump with a great otho or plossl on a planet???

bird (Anthony Wesley) · #2 22-11-2005, 03:13 PM

Ahhh, Davo, my Young Apprentice...

The force is stroong in you, I can feel it. Come to the Dark Side, forget those pesky eyepieces...

rmcpb (Rob) · #3 22-11-2005, 03:53 PM

In a word, yes.

I have the standard issue GS 9mm and a Meade 4000 9.7mm and regardless of what I am looking at the Meade is the one I will use. It simply allows you to see more detail.

Is it worth the extra expense, yes. Maybe you need to use some of the mid price-range lenses rather than spending big on top of the range eyepieces that you won't use extensively as it appears that imaging is your main goal.

Just a thought.

iceman (Mike) · #4 22-11-2005, 04:02 PM

When you study a planet, and I mean study, not just a quick glimpse but really sitting down and watching it for 5 or 10 minutes, like Dave, Geoff and myself were doing at Snake Valley, you DO see more detail and there's something more exhilirating about the photons hitting the back of your eyes realtime, not looking at the processed image afterwards.

Planetary observing is a skill, and it takes time to perfect it. When I first started observing, I could only just make out 2 brown belts of Jupiter. Now, I can make out many more, as well as the GRS, blue barges and even smaller white storms. It takes time, patience and practise to be able to "see" these things. You need to train your eyes.

The same goes for Mars.. when you get better at it, you'll see more than a red/orange disk.. you'll see the polar caps, and many albedo features that you see in teh images.

And a good quality eyepiece helps, because otherwise when the planet drifts near the edges of the FOV, it'll go mushy/blurry so you won't see the detail.

You'll be absolutely amazed and stunned at the detail you can see when you really study a planet IN GOOD SEEING. The detail just jumps out at you, it's just great.

But there's no reason you can't get a good quality eyepiece that serves a dual purpose, for high power DSO viewing (core of a galaxy, planetary nebula) as well as planetary viewing. Something around the 7mm range will serve this purpose. Combine that with a 13/14mm for medium power DSO viewing, you can then use a 2.5x powermate to get the equivalent of a 4/5mm eyepiece for those nights of REALLY good seeing.

davidpretorius · #5 22-11-2005, 04:10 PM

thanks rob and ice! more food for thought!

ving (David) · #6 22-11-2005, 04:13 PM

any EP that gives you extra contrast will allow you to see more detail... its alot like loking at DSOs. greater contrast will darken the bands on jupiter and allow a better view of the grs.......

gah! go back to imaging you, you imager!!!

with the advances in imaging why look thru a telescope at all.... you will see more detail in a picture of m42 than thru an EP so why have a telescope? why not just do a google image search for globular cluster... you'll get to see them all in one night...
why image yourself when you can just look at birds pics, they are bound to be better than anything you will see live.

er... am i making sense?

why look for supernovas when you can just see the results of someone elses efforts?
why knit a jumper when you can just go out and buy one?

sorry bout the ramble

yes, get a good EP for planets is what i am saying. not a nagler, get an orthoscopic or a good plossl...

still rambling

ignore my post... tho it gives insight into why i am into this science/hobby

Robert_T · #7 22-11-2005, 04:30 PM

I'm with Bird on this one - the dark side beckons....

must confess the ol' eyepieces haven't seen nearly as many photons since that little webcam chip came into my life

asimov (John) · #8 22-11-2005, 04:42 PM

Well, after visually viewing planets etc. most of my astronomical life, & now after breaking into the photography side of things I can now see both sides of the coin.

I have a few high power eyepieces that I can only use when the seeing is close to perfect which seems to be pretty rare where I live. I've spent years worrying about the concept of getting a better view of the planets & hence upgrading to supposedly better...& more expensive EPs. My most expensive EP is the 5mm LV vixen. $300 3 years ago. Quite frankly, my little 5mm ortho .965 does just as good on the planets. It was only 2 months ago I was dertermined to get a nagler or a pentax to get the best possible views! Now I'm not so sure I'll be doing that!

Since getting into astrophotography I've often pulled myself up saying "you haven't done any visual observing for awhile!?" I did some observing last night actually just to see what I've been missing....looked at mars with the LV 5mm plus refractor. Did I miss looking at mars visually?? The answer is no. I can see more detail on mars by photographing it!! I looked at M42. Did I miss looking at it....yes, cos' I can't photograph it nicely yet.

Once I can photograph everything in the sky, I can honestly say I could spend the rest of my life photographing thru a telescope rather than looking thru it.

I just worked out I've spent very close to the same amount of money on eyepieces as telescopes! Getting a toucam has totally changed my way of thinking..This is more exciting & fullfilling to me: to spend 3 or 4 hours capturing/processing etc etc & then to see the final image! I don't get the WOW factor these days visually, to do that, I need to keep getting better EPs. Nope...I'll be getting the WOW factor by getting better at imaging from here on in.

Not sure what to suggest to you Dave. If your only going to visually look once in a blue moon, I wouldn't suggest go out and buy a nagler!

That money would be better spent towards tracking mate. You have all the gear ready for great photos except that one vital component...tracking! For DSO work it needs to be ACCURATE too (as you know)

I'm at the dark side now, & here I will remain. I'm not going to rush out & flog all my EPs off though. Already I view them as family heirlooms or things that should be kept in a nice safe place away from prying eyes...sacred objects! LOL!!

I have no doubt I'll have another 'swing around' in 10 years time & go back to visual but at present, astro has me by the short N' curlies & I couldn't just give up toucamming if my life depended on it! It's a real break thru for me, to see better detail on mars by photographing it...I just can't see detail visually as good...even with a $300 dollar EP! That goes for the rest of the planets too. I just can't imagine upgrading to a $1000 EP is going to make much difference?

davidpretorius · #9 22-11-2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert_T

since that little webcam chip came into my life

i love my toucam, but that damn Sir Dave 47tuc has got me spiritually bound to viewing.

I mean the two images i can't get out of my head at the moment is the trap after collimation and cooling and how much fun i had looking at the damn heat waves with a star test. SAD!!!

Ice and Dave got to me first i am afraid when i first started. They said not to get so wrapped up in imaging that you forget to look with your eyes. Dave's little talk at star camp sign sealed and delivered that home.

And now ice has mentioned that he can get good amounts of detail over a longer period of time. Arrrgh, just when i thought i could try and save money!!

But asimov is like a kid in a lolly shop with his toucam.

And then vingo's double stars have me hooked as well.

It is starting to become clearer, thanks to you guys:

I can see that a 7mm UO ortho for planetary and a 7mm (radian or pentax xw) will be in the case in the next few years.

I will then look to a meade, pentax or radian 11mm (2.5x powermate = 4.4mm)

After that a nice wide field in low power. So 4 eps instead of 3 and a case to fit these 4 and the two powermates.

Visual is here to stay for me, as no doubt once i get tracking the new field of dso's will open up, but as Dave has said. "There has never been a image of Tuc47 that is as good as your eye can see!!!"

Sorry bird, I will continue to do both and have two masters (you and dave47tuc)

Thanks again All!

asimov (John) · #10 22-11-2005, 05:09 PM

That's cool Dave! It's best you get a few years of observing experience under your belt in any case. That can't hurt. If your going to do visual observing, you want the GOOD views so yup, upgrade! I keep forgetting you only have 500 series as planetary EPs. It doesn't cost the earth to get good planetary eyepieces. At least you have the people in this forum to guide you on choice of EP, which is more than I had when I was starting out.

#11 22-11-2005, 05:24 PM

When I observe planets I will spend anywhere from 1-4 hours on it (with breaks) easy
30-40 minites at a time, especially o'l Jup's where you have lots of action to
observe.
I cant do that with my UO HD, because lets face it, as good as they are
they're not real comfortable to use for extended periods of time. I think you
can guess where my comfort lays, still that comfort comes with allot more
dollars. I think of premium ep's like this you buy them to keep for life, they're
an investment not only in resale but in pleasent observing sessions. That's
the way I see it. And that not to say that someone esle dosn't get the same
pleasure from their UO HD... I just cant use them for extended periods.

regards,CS

Starkler (Geoff) · #12 22-11-2005, 06:46 PM

Great posts by Mike and Rob here

As Mike mentioned about studying planets visually, it pays to spend time at the eyepiece. I was observing through mine and Mike was looking through Daves scope when all of the sudden, the air became totally still and amazing detail jumped out for just a few seconds (just like Birds pics). Time spent at the eyepiece gives you a better chance of catching those all too brief moments of near perfect seeing.

I recall another occasion 2 years ago when I was viewing Jupiter when suddenly the air froze solid for about 10 seconds. White ovals and all the detail possible to see lept out and those are the moments you remember

I observe for the visual feast and arent interested in doing astrophotography for the simple reason that there are so many others who will do it better than I ever could

Id hate to spend a truckload of money to achieve a result that I could download from the net from the efforts of others. Im just happy that others do it and share their pictures with us

davidpretorius · #13 22-11-2005, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starkler

Great posts by Mike and Rob here

True and yours has sealed it, thanks

asimov (John) · #14 22-11-2005, 06:54 PM

So lets get down to what EP you favor most mate! I have some good plossl's I can send you if you want to do like a comparison to what you looked thru at starcamp.

janoskiss (Steve H) · #15 22-11-2005, 07:16 PM

Part of the reason photos can't compete with view through the EP on many objects is that the dynamic range of display devices or the printed image is nowhere near what the eye is capable of detecting directly. With a bright glob you can clearly see the sparse scattering of stars at the perimeter and can resolve individual stars in the core at the same time. You can see lots of detail on Jupiter or Saturn and see the planet's moons shining brightly at the same time. In a photo you have to over- or under-expose one feature to see the other unless you resort to digital trickery. And even then, you never get the luminous brilliance of star packed DSOs.

And EPs make a lot of difference. My 5 & 8mm Stratus gave some stunning huge images of Mars last Sunday night (also barlowed the 8 for a whopping 300x). Seeing was outstanding but not nearly up to the best of Snake Valley, but the views were better than SV thanks to using decent EPs this time.

bird (Anthony Wesley) · #16 22-11-2005, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starkler

Id hate to spend a truckload of money to achieve a result that I could download from the net from the efforts of others. Im just happy that others do it and share their pictures with us

One of the things I find most appealing about imaging planets is that they are always different - whether it's a dust storm on Mars at opposition or the ever shifting storms and belts on Jupiter, no two images are ever the same.

This is one of the few remaining areas where amateurs like you and I can make a serious contribution, by taking images and forwarding them to places the the International Outer Planetary Watch (http://www.ehu.es/iopw/) or Planetary Visual Observatory and Laboratory (http://bppx90.bp.ehu.es:8080/pvol/index.jsp). There are papers written every year refining our knowledge of these planets that draw heavily on the data from amateurs.

regards, Bird

davidpretorius · #17 22-11-2005, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asimov

So lets get down to what EP you favor most mate! I have some good plossl's I can send you if you want to do like a comparison to what you looked thru at starcamp.

7mm and 11mm (or 6 & 12) to start with would be great. I can send you a return airbag????

Dave47tuc (David) · #18 22-11-2005, 07:24 PM

I read these posts and smile. Mr DP you are so so new at this.

Planetary observing is a fine art and Mike and others have made points on seeing and experience.
My friend you worry about eyepieces to much. Some guy overseas does the same thing.

A few points to help you. Stop worrying about eyepieces. A good quality eyepiece will do fine. Buy what you can afford.

Then look at getting up in the mornings to observe the Planets. The seeing should be better and the scope will have cooled enough. Leave the scope under the patio or something if you have one. Make sure all the workings of the scope are fine , collimation etc. Sit down if you can when observing and get relaxed. Try your left then right eye, you may find one works better. Find the right focus. Use the most magnification your seeing lets you.
Then just look 10 minutes 20, 1 hour as much as you can. Sketch what you see. This will help you see detail, but only sketch what you see!!

Don’t do this one night do this when you can. The more you observe the better you will get. Next time we meet at a Star Party you can then show me what you can see. I will enjoy reading posts on what you see.

Take you pictures as well. This will get you better at using your scope. After you take your pictures take the camera out then put your eyepiece in and observe for a while. Your pictures then will be more appreciated by YOU.

Enjoy your work.

acropolite (Phil) · #19 22-11-2005, 07:38 PM

Dave, there are lots of plossles around that are quite good quality and reasonably priced. I took a punt, based on a favourable report, and bought a Meade S5000 14mm plossl (60 degree FOV as opposed to 50 degree on other plossls) as a stopgap EP but am so pleased with the performance I probably won't bother upgrading. I don't know how well it would perform on a fast scope but on the LX it's very good. Unfortunately Meade's EP's seem to be very hit & miss but the S5000 plossls seem to get favourable comment, unlike the rest of the S5000 range. There is a 9 and 5.5mm available in this series; all are under $150 and have 60 degree FOV and good eye relief. I don't think you have to spend squillions of dollars to get good performance, ask lots of questions, read as many reviews as possible then make an educated decision. That said if you buy a top quality EP, as Rob says, you have it for life and it's a sure bet you'll never wish you had bought a cheaper one. If I were looking for an EP in the 7mm range, the Pentax 7mm XW would be my choice based on reports I have seen.

asimov (John) · #20 22-11-2005, 08:09 PM

The closest I've got to 7mm is the vixen LV 5mm or the baader eudiascopic 7.5mm. In the 12mm range, I have a 15mm parks gold series. Tell me the ones you want to borrow (if any)

I only just gave away a brand new 6mm UO ortho a couple of months ago too!