Pier for EQ6 questions (lots of them - complete newbie)
Sort of looking to try and get back into astronomy and in particular, astro imaging. Previous stumbling blocks for me were a lack of observatory/permanent setup and just not really understanding how to best polar align/drift align the setup to allow for longer exposures. My home does not allow for an observatory (lack of room, very bad layout of building block).
I've been thinking of it a lot of late, and came to the conclusion that my best option would be a pier in the front yard. It would give me the best sky coverage, at least in terms of visible sky. The only problem is that there's a street light 10 metres or so in front of our place and the light pollution from it is terrible...
Anyway, been doing reading on piers and I'm not finding a lot of real information out there, at least for a non technical newbie like myself. I cannot afford a pre-made pier, as I'm currently unemployed and finding it very difficult to gain new employment (lack of formal qualifications, and age are 2 very big problems it seems). Many have suggested getting a steel pier (rather than concrete or wood) and that seems the right way to go imho.
My main concerns are the how it all goes together. I found this image (similar to other images of pier setups that I've found):
but it leaves a lot of questions that aren't covered and answered, and it's presumed the reader knows how it all goes together. How is the bottom of the 2 plates connected to the top of the pier? As far as I understand, the 2 plate set up allows you to have some degree of levelling ability for the pier setup, and also gives you room to lock the mount to the top plate from underneath the top plate.
How is the mounting plate connected to the top plate?
I've been searching for quality cad plans for the EQ6 plate and found Bojan's plans (thank you!) and I presume that they'll be perfectly fine for this sort of pier setup that I'm thinking about.
My intentions were for a hollow steel pier (6-8mm thick walls), 200-250 cross width, at least 4' above ground and whatever length is required to go below ground into the concrete base.
I'll have to save up over the coming months with what little income I have from unemployment payments, in order to afford steel pier base, get eq6 mounting plate machined up, and I presume the 2 adjustment plates machined up too (I have no idea how they should be machined though). I cannot DIY these parts, and I cannot weld.
I'll need to think about power as well and how to run power to the pier to drive the mount and any other electronics in the future and will probably need to get an electrician to do work on adding a fuse/power to our meter (I'm not sure how all of that works, and even if it's actually possible to be done, let alone costs). Then there's probably the need to run a network cable to the setup to allow for remote networking/control.
Any suggestions/advice would be appreciated. If there's anyone in Brissie who would be prepared to help/advice in person, that'd be awesome too, although this idea is at its very early stages of seeing whether or not it's doable and feasible, or if I should just forget about it, and any real work is probably at least Six months away at a guess.
Does anyone know if I need to advise my local council of intent to build a pier and/or supply plans to them? I would expect not, but nothing surprises me these days...
Then there's security - my intention was to leave the mount set up and attached to the pier, but the big issue there is potential theft...do you guys really think it'd be an issue? I could remove the mount head from the pier each time, but that really defeats the purpose of the pier imho. I could probably have some sort of pier/mount cover made that can be padlocked to the concrete base somehow, but I'd really need to think about how that would need to be done.
I'm not particular mechanically minded and don't really have any experience building things myself. I'm OK at following guides, as long as they make EVERY step crystal clear, which many guides don't. They presume prior knowledge and that's their huge failing point imho.
Oh, and what's the best way to get council plans to make sure that I'm building on my own land, and not council property? And what about finding plumbing/electrical/other piping etc to ensure that I don't accidentally dig things up that I shouldn't?
So many questions...
Gear used would be an EQ6pro mount and SkyWatcher Equinox 102ED refractor and a Bintel 8" newtonian. Intentions would be to eventually image DSOs with my Canon 60D (unmodded) and down the track, a KAF8300 based mono CCD camera/filters when I can afford One. The focuser on the telescope is crap imho and really struggled with my old Canon EOS1D IIn's weight, but that's another topic and I'll post a thread about that later on today.
Hi Dave, this thread and the link to the other post in post 1 should give you more ideas. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...d.php?t=136618
My pier works very well and the mount is easy to set up and take down.
I tend to leave it on the pier and covered with old towels and sheets covered up with tarp, I only take th scope in if not using for a few nights.
Cheers
Bo
PM or email me about your boundaries etc. I can help with that. You won't need council approval as long as in you yard and not a full observatory, just a pier. That being said, def wouldn't leave mount in front yard. Ever.
Hi Dave, this thread and the link to the other post in post 1 should give you more ideas. http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...d.php?t=136618
My pier works very well and the mount is easy to set up and take down.
I tend to leave it on the pier and covered with old towels and sheets covered up with tarp, I only take th scope in if not using for a few nights.
Cheers
Bo
Thank you! So the EQ6 mounting plate mounts to the top plate, and I take it all that the top plate needs is the 4 holes machined/drilled into it with the appropriate OD. I presume these 4 holes will need to be threaded then for the screws to take lol! I'm assuming nothing and asking every question that comes to mind, even if it sounds stupid or I think I know the answer.
I found this EQ6 plate on EBay - price seems reasonable I think:
What do you think? It's the only One on EBay I could find, and I couldn't find anything in Australia on a Google search.
I note your pier is different in construction to what I plan - but I don't think in the overall scheme of things it makes much difference and my original thought is still AOK.
I intended to buy a cover for the pier and to keep it covered other than when in use.
For the steel pier - is it rust proof "as is" or is there a special type of steel truss that I need to order/purchase, or is there a post treatment (like a paint) that I would be best to put on it to stop rust issues etc?
I note that your pier terminates into a pre slab with the 4 support rods underneath it all - my original intention was to buy around 7' of steel pier material, 4' above ground, and 3' below ground, concreted in. I was looking at 3' x 3' x 1.5' deep concrete, with the pier going into the ground another 1.5' below the bottommost section of the concrete. Does that sound OK?
PM or email me about your boundaries etc. I can help with that. You won't need council approval as long as in you yard and not a full observatory, just a pier. That being said, def wouldn't leave mount in front yard. Ever.
Hi Troy - yes, long time no see! I've seen your images on Flickr and have been mightily impressed (truth be told, your images have actually been a partial motivator for me to get onto this astro imaging path).
Excellent on council approval - or none requirement thereof. I like that a lot.
OK - not leaving mount in front yard means I'd have to set it up every time and polar align, etc, which defeats the purpose of the pier in the first place. I have no confidence in polar alignment and truth be told, it both confuses me and scares the hell out of me. If you get a chance, would you consider coming out to my place (from memory, you've been out here before, albeit probably Six or so years ago?) and maybe checking the back yard out as to where you think might be a feasible location that gives me as much of the sky as possible? The property is terrible imho for placement of a pier and sky visibility...
Dave, I drilled out the top plate and bolted the adapter plate with nuts under the pier top plate.
Your ebay adapter plate should do the trick. I had my adapter plate machined by a mate's father, costed me a slab of beer
Don't forget to get the extension pillar.
My pier had the gussets welded on and was stripped and powder coated by another mate of mine, so it was a professional job.
I drilled out the pre fab slab and bolted the threaded rod before pushing them into the wet concrete. I wanted my footing to be solid, so 12 bags did the trick. Remember the footing is there to act as an anchor to whatever is on top, so it needed to be heavy.
Hope that helps.
Bo
Dave, I drilled out the top plate and bolted the adapter plate with nuts under the pier top plate.
Your ebay adapter plate should do the trick. I had my adapter plate machined by a mate's father, costed me a slab of beer
Don't forget to get the extension pillar.
My pier had the gussets welded on and was stripped and powder coated by another mate of mine, so it was a professional job.
I drilled out the pre fab slab and bolted the threaded rod before pushing them into the wet concrete. I wanted my footing to be solid, so 12 bags did the trick. Remember the footing is there to act as an anchor to whatever is on top, so it needed to be heavy.
Hope that helps.
Bo
OK, what's the extension pillar? And the gussets - are they the support fins at the base of the pier? Assume that I know absolutely NOTHING!
I found this video on YouTube just now and it makes things a bit clearer for me:
I note in the video that there's an Azimuth bar on the pier plate, which isn't on the EBay plate that I linked to. So, where do I get that from? I thought that that would have come with the mounting plate?
I'm very nervous cos i want to get things done, and done right the first time, but if I'm paying for someone to machine things for me, etc, and I explain what I want wrong to them, then I'm gonna end up paying for a stuff up! That's why it's critical that I absolutely 100% understand the whole process mechanically before I even start saving my pennies and getting started on this project lol!
His intermediate azimuth stage (very nicely machined though) is not needed for EQ6 as it has a provision for azimuth adjustment (+/- 10° or so... (but could be useful for some other mount) if you position the galvanized screws properly prior to pouring concrete.
G'day Dave. I'll send you privately a Google Earth image of your house with the free Queensland Globe overlay showing your boundaries and easements etc (there's a NSW one available too in case anyone is interested). You need Google Earth Pro, which is free these days too.
Yellow lines are site boundaries, green shaded areas are easements. As a general rule, just keep building work inside your boundaries and out of easements.
That being said, I'd be recommending against you putting in a pier. You mention you're out of work at moment, so assume money is tight. Why spend money on a pier when you have a tripod for your mount already? Time is free, which I reckon would be much better spent getting comfortable with alignment. That seems to be your hurdle, and it's an almost essential skill to learn to be comfortable with in astro-imaging.
It appears that you've been looking into Polemasters recently. I have one, and it does save time aligning... however... you have to be able see the SCP, and it doesn't sound like you can from your place - at least from backyard? So, again, if you're tight for money, I'd advise against getting one unless you can see SCP from where you're setting up. I still do a drift alignment after Polemaster anyway, just for confirmation/tweaking.
My advice, depending on which part of sky you want to shoot and the field of view from front/back yard, set up on a nightly basis in front yard, and maybe leave covered with tarp etc for few nights in back yard.
This time of year sucks to get a full clear night. Maybe set up in back yard and when no clouds, practise getting comfortable with drift aligning? Cover with tarp and play again the next night etc?
Dave, this is the extension pillar I was talking about http://www.ozscopes.com.au/skywatche...sion-tube.html
Gussets are the "fins" on the side of the pier, they add rigidity to the set up.
For my set up, I didn't want to use the "rat cage", which is what the youtube video set up had. I wanted to bolt the lot on to a pier top plate.
The following photos will explain the set up better:
1. The adapter plate has 5 x M12 coarse threads tapped. The four outer threaded holes are used to bolt the adapter plate to the pier top plate. There are four nuts under the pier top plate securing the lot.
2. The centre threaded hole is used to bolt the bottom part of the pillar extension to the adapter plate.
3. The steel tube of the pillar extension is then placed over the top and secured to the bottom part of the pillar extension using the M5 hex screws supplied.
4. The top part of the pillar extension is attached securely to the EQ6 mount (shown without the mount).
5. The mount with the top part of the pillar extension is then lowered to the top part of the open tube and the lot secured with the other 3 M5 hex screws (shown without the mount).
Hope that clear things up a bit.
Cheers
Bo
His intermediate azimuth stage (very nicely machined though) is not needed for EQ6 as it has a provision for azimuth adjustment (+/- 10° or so... (but could be useful for some other mount) if you position the galvanized screws properly prior to pouring concrete.
Dave, this is the extension pillar I was talking about http://www.ozscopes.com.au/skywatche...sion-tube.html
Gussets are the "fins" on the side of the pier, they add rigidity to the set up.
For my set up, I didn't want to use the "rat cage", which is what the youtube video set up had. I wanted to bolt the lot on to a pier top plate.
The following photos will explain the set up better:
1. The adapter plate has 5 x M12 coarse threads tapped. The four outer threaded holes are used to bolt the adapter plate to the pier top plate. There are four nuts under the pier top plate securing the lot.
2. The centre threaded hole is used to bolt the bottom part of the pillar extension to the adapter plate.
3. The steel tube of the pillar extension is then placed over the top and secured to the bottom part of the pillar extension using the M5 hex screws supplied.
4. The top part of the pillar extension is attached securely to the EQ6 mount (shown without the mount).
5. The mount with the top part of the pillar extension is then lowered to the top part of the open tube and the lot secured with the other 3 M5 hex screws (shown without the mount).
Hope that clear things up a bit.
Cheers
Bo
Thank you Bo! That really clears things up for me. Now to consider things...(see my reply to Troy shortly).
Dave,
I, like Bo, use the SW extension tube to mount the NEQ6 head to the pier.
To keep things simple I mounted a M12 x 1.75 stainless steel bolt through the top of the pier plate to provide a rigid "stud" attachment for the extension tube base. Screw the extension tube hard onto the M12 screw and then fit the NEQ6 head. Simples.....
Very rigid and works very well.
G'day Dave. I'll send you privately a Google Earth image of your house with the free Queensland Globe overlay showing your boundaries and easements etc (there's a NSW one available too in case anyone is interested). You need Google Earth Pro, which is free these days too.
Yellow lines are site boundaries, green shaded areas are easements. As a general rule, just keep building work inside your boundaries and out of easements.
That being said, I'd be recommending against you putting in a pier. You mention you're out of work at moment, so assume money is tight. Why spend money on a pier when you have a tripod for your mount already? Time is free, which I reckon would be much better spent getting comfortable with alignment. That seems to be your hurdle, and it's an almost essential skill to learn to be comfortable with in astro-imaging.
It appears that you've been looking into Polemasters recently. I have one, and it does save time aligning... however... you have to be able see the SCP, and it doesn't sound like you can from your place - at least from backyard? So, again, if you're tight for money, I'd advise against getting one unless you can see SCP from where you're setting up. I still do a drift alignment after Polemaster anyway, just for confirmation/tweaking.
My advice, depending on which part of sky you want to shoot and the field of view from front/back yard, set up on a nightly basis in front yard, and maybe leave covered with tarp etc for few nights in back yard.
This time of year sucks to get a full clear night. Maybe set up in back yard and when no clouds, practise getting comfortable with drift aligning? Cover with tarp and play again the next night etc?
Well, this is pretty sad...pretty much my entire backyard is easement. In hindsight, I can't see the south celestial pole from the backyard, so polar alignment is out the question and that pretty much precludes any setup anyway then.
The front yard is the best location, but it seems too risky. So, pretty much I'm screwed.
I don't really want to go through setting things up every viewing session - it's what killed any motivation the last time I got into Astronomy a few years back. I had hoped to be able to set and forget (alignment wise) and just have to worry about balancing the scope etc. But it seems that dream has been dashed.
It looks like I'll probably not bother with pursuing astro imaging and will probably consider selling my gear then. Not much point in having stuff that you don't use. It's just not worth the angst.
Yeah, I'm not working, been unemployed a year now. It seems that 47 year olds are worthless to the workforce, especially if they don't have some BS degree. Experience counts for nothing...given how the job market is, and how little the government is doing to protect employee rights, I don't see things changing soon.
Oh well, thanks for the replies everyone. I'll go disappear again and hibernate.
You don't need to see the SCP to align, just if you want to use Polemaster or a polar scope. You can drift align without seeing SCP.
A few guys I know have 3 bricks in back yard with marks where tripod legs go each time. Don't adjust legs, and don't change alt on mount, and alignment v quick just to tweak az.
Don't give up that easy mate. There's fun to be had
You don't need to see the SCP to align, just if you want to use Polemaster or a polar scope. You can drift align without seeing SCP.
A few guys I know have 3 bricks in back yard with marks where tripod legs go each time. Don't adjust legs, and don't change alt on mount, and alignment v quick just to tweak az.
Don't give up that easy mate. There's fun to be had
yeah, but doesn't not seeing (and aligning) against the SCP make it a lot harder and limit how accurate you can be for tracking? I'd be happy if I can track images for up to 15 minutes without star trailing.
I had a look at the backyard more this afternoon and there's 1 location that gives me about 3/4 of the sky, but South and South East are no goes (blocked from view by house). it just means that a good slab of interesting sky won't be available to me :/
It'd probably be in the easement area - basically nearly the entire backyard is easement...I'm a bit pissed off, cos the property should have been a HELL lot more cheaper imho - given that probably 30% of "our" land is easement Another instance of lawyers not doing their job and just taking your money and running...why am I pissed? Well, I'm pretty sure we pay land rates on ALL of the land, why should we be paying land rates on land that's easement that we can't really do jack with?
To drift align you need to be able to see close to the celestial equator (within 20 degrees) near the meridian and horizon. So the SCP is not needed. If you set up a pier with the extension you can remove the mount using the three screws at either the top or bottom of the extension and leave it attached to your mount. When you replace it for your imaging session you should have a reasonable polar alignment and can fine tune it with a drift alignment.
You could do something similar with a tripod but it wont be quite as close.
To drift align you need to be able to see close to the celestial equator (within 20 degrees) near the meridian and horizon. So the SCP is not needed. If you set up a pier with the extension you can remove the mount using the three screws at either the top or bottom of the extension and leave it attached to your mount. When you replace it for your imaging session you should have a reasonable polar alignment and can fine tune it with a drift alignment.
You could do something similar with a tripod but it wont be quite as close.
Good food for thought Ken, thank you. I'm trying to wrap my head around all of the technical terms - I'm a pretty simple person/user - I see the Stars, etc, but I don't tend to think or use of the technical celestial globe terms to be honest.
The celestial equator is zero degrees declination and the meridian is straight overhead. If you can see Orions belt directly overhead during the night then that is one of the spots you can drift align on. If you follow the arc traced by Orion's Belt down to the horizon in the east or west, that's the other spot to drift align on. You only need to view within about 20 degrees of those spots to do a drift alignment.
The celestial equator is zero degrees declination and the meridian is straight overhead. If you can see Orions belt directly overhead during the night then that is one of the spots you can drift align on. If you follow the arc traced by Orion's Belt down to the horizon in the east or west, that's the other spot to drift align on. You only need to view within about 20 degrees of those spots to do a drift alignment.
OK, been reading up more on the celestial globe and now better understand what you mean! Thank you.
I still need to check what's in the easement area (probably sewerage pipes like Troy has said) and if that's the case, how far down they are. I have a spot in the backyard that is sadly in the easement area, but it gives me viewing of around 3/4 of the night sky. Anywhere else in the backyard is crap (house/trees mean it's about overhead viewing and that's it). I've eliminated the front yard, even though it's the best option, cos there's no real way of keeping the mount permanently mounted and aligned and safe. Yes, mounting it permanently in the back yard still poses a risk of someone entering the property and stealing it, but it'll be less obvious than in the front yard! Plus, we have 2 killer cats that attack on site lol! Trespassers be warned!!! I'm also thinking of putting up a "beware of doug" sign in the front yard as a general warning
Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread and helped answer my myriad of questions. Much appreciated.
