Do you want perfect tracking with no guiding?

[telecasterguru (Frank)]

Want to guide perfectly with no guiding. No more PEC issues. Have a look at this. http://www.meade.de/en/products/astr...deproducts_pi1[cmd]=pdis&tx_meadeproducts_pi1[artid]=0721000&cHash=a007c0cdc4.

Sounds too good to be true and is expensive, but if it can do what it claims WOW.

Frank

[bmitchell82 (Brendan)]

whats the product, as the link doesn't work.

[telecasterguru (Frank)]

"Telescope Drive Master" which provides a revolutionary technology for demanding amateur astronomers and advanced semi-pro observers. This device does not just reduce but does completely eliminate* all of the periodic and non-periodic tracking error of your equatorial mount. You do not need to have conventional autoguider system, you do not need to spend your valuable observing time with unproductive guide-star hunting; just expose, expose and expose all the night...

Telescope Drive Master" which provides a revolutionary technology for demanding amateur astronomers and advanced semi-pro observers. This device does not just reduce but does completely eliminate* all of the periodic and non-periodic tracking error of your equatorial mount. You do not need to have conventional autoguider system, you do not need to spend your valuable observing time with unproductive guide-star hunting; just expose, expose and expose all the night...
* The rest of the tracking errors will be covered by air-mass scintillation in normal cases (except more than 2-3000 meters above the sea...).
** More and more types of mass-produced equatorial telescope mounts will be applicable with Telescope Drive Master. We support Vixen GP(-DX), Syntha EQ6, Astrophysics 1200, Takahashi NJP, Losmandy G11 and LX200 GPS 8" - 14" on an equatorial wedge.
1 arc-second tracking ability
without using conventional auto-guider or PEC software!!!



http://www.meade.de/en/products/astr...ash=a007c0cdc4

I hope this link works, it is from Meade Europe.

Frank

[Wavytone]

Think he's referring to this:
http://www.meade.de/en/products/astr...ash=a629017a92

The parent page is
http://www.meade.de/en/products/astro-specials.html

It has come up before on IIS and IMHO its pure snake-oil, and very expensive snake-oil at that. Take a look at the Vixen version; 300 euros for a metal cylinder...

There's no way it can correct for mount mis-alignment on the pole, non-perpendicular axes in the mount, refraction or periodic errors etc without some form of feedback, either by optical measurements during setup, encoders or a CCD.

Most likely all it really consists of is a simple dual-axis motor drive corrector for two steppers.

And lastly it does not look like a Meade product, externally.

[bmitchell82 (Brendan)]

ahh yeah this product came up a while back before meade grabbed it! I don't think you can get rid of all of your tracking errors without live feedback from the sky. but thats just my opinion. and at close to 2500 aud... ide rather go buy a losmandy or astrophysics mount for a bit more!

[telecasterguru (Frank)]

Yes this is the new improved version 2

[tlgerdes (Trevor)]

Ahhhhhh.

When you read the doco, it is to correct your mounts inherent tracking errors, not your alignment errors.

"The long term tracking accuracy of your mount supported by Telescope Drive Master will be determined and limited exclusively by the precision of the polar alignment of your mount and air refraction"

Secondly, it is not an unconnected phantom box.

"Our system has got two main parts: a high precision encoder unit attached directly onto the RA shaft of the mount and an electronic device (let's say a sort of "black-box"), which receives the electrical signals arriving from the encoder unit and sends control instructions to its own mount's driver via its auto-guider input connector."

[leon]

Now wouldn't that be good, but i have to say It to good to be true.

Leon

[Kal (Andrew)]

Astro-Physics has this type of option available on their 3600GT mount as a US$6800 option. It brings the PE error down to 0.26 of an arcsecond though.

pdf link

[lacad01 (Adam)]

Sounds like the holy grail of the tracking world

[rajiva]

Hi Frank,

Originally Posted by telecasterguru

Want to guide perfectly with no guiding. No more PEC issues. Have a look at this.

in my opinion the TDM System is much to expensive for what it can do, you loose your Polar scope what makes south (north) leveling a real problem and a stand alone autoguiding system can do much more for less money. In germany, where Meade Europe is trying to sell this system many Starfriends come to the decision that the system is not worth buying it.

1. The system has no correction possibilitys in DEC, so you need some kind of real good alignment. With a lost polar scope ...
2. As no DEC corrections are available by the TDM you need some extra Guiding system. If you have such extra guiding system there is no need for a TDM at all as this system will guide RA as well.
3. For just 30% of the TDM price you can get a stand alone guiding system that will do the job in RA and DEC and you keep your polar scope.

"Telescope Drive Master" which provides a revolutionary technology for demanding amateur astronomers and advanced semi-pro observers.

A such revolutionary technology that it was implemented as a improved and FREE
Feature in the LFE Photo, called PEC Tracker or EPEC, before the TDM V2 was available.


Just my two cents to this excessively overpriced piece of electronic.
Rajiva

[Peter Ward]

Wow. Fantastic. Next time I perferctly align my zero flexure scope outside the earth's atmosphere...well... I'll just have to get me one of those....

By the way,

P.T. Barnum is credited for saying "there's a sucker born every minute"

[allan gould]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Wow. Fantastic. Next time I perferctly align my zero flexure scope outside the earth's atmosphere...well... I'll just have to get me one of those....

By the way,

P.T. Barnum is credited for saying "there's a sucker born every minute"

It would be interesting to see how this holds up with Australian advertising laws and consumer protection and where Meade's let-out-clause is i.e. you didn't read the fine print.

[telecasterguru (Frank)]

But this is version 2 so it must be better than version 1.

Frank

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Hang on............ in reality, its an end shaft encoder, what pro observatories use, nothing magic about it at all. It elimates PE because its after the gearbox/worm gear etc..

Put aside the advertising and take it for what it is, an end shaft encoder, and its a very good price indeed for the reported res. Almost too good in fact, ive seen shaft encoders at this res for over $7K, just for the encoder.

It would suit mounts with poor PE, much cheaper than upgrading the mount.

I can see why Meade jumped on this given the spec for the price (assuming the spec is true), but its a shame the way its being promoted (no need for guiding etc), it just feeds the kind of of comments presented here.

This product, with an understanding of exactly what it does, is actually a good deal, a very good deal..

[rajiva]

Hi Frank,

Originally Posted by telecasterguru

But this is version 2 so it must be better than version 1.

yes it is a V2 version but what did they change and why was a V2 needed at all?

The main point for the V2 was the build in ST-4 Port as they realized that a autoguiding port IS NEEDED and the system is useless without such a port because you need a way to correct the DEC axis, the Refraction, and align errors that the system is not aware of.

But what happens if you connect a autoguiding system to this port?

In my opinion the system is simply deactivated when useing this autoguider connector. The manufactor, no not meade, makes this clear!

Important: TDM has a dead-time on auto-guider input following the end of the last auto-guider correction period for as long as 2 seconds avoiding excitation and resonance problems of two different control-loops.

So if your autoguider sends impulses within a time period of 2 Seconds!, what is a very long time for a autoguiding system, the system is in dead-time waiting the autoguider stops working. I think this just happens after the exposure.

Other disadvantages, beside the price:

Using TDM you need to accomplish very accurate polar alignment

Without a polar scope

There is no optical feedback from the certain part of the sky observed so your telescope needs to have a sturdy and rigid mount which is not cheap

A autoguider do not have such limitation.

This system is insensitive regarding flexure of mechanical parts and weak quality RA bearings.

No problem if useing an off axis autoguider.

TDM cannot follow objects in the sky having remarkable proper motions

No problem with a autoguider at all.

This version of TDM does not compensate air refraction

Any autoguider will do this job.

CS
Rajiva

[rajiva]

Hi Fred,

Originally Posted by Bassnut

This product, with an understanding of exactly what it does, is actually a good deal, a very good deal..

you should have a look at the ASA Website
For the price of a TDM + Mount + Guider + Telescopecontroller +++ you can get a Mount that REALLY DO NOT NEED autoguiding any more.

CS
Rajiva

P.S.: A discussion at CN

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Originally Posted by rajiva

But what happens if you connect a autoguiding system to this port?

In my opinion the system is simply deactivated when useing this autoguider connector. Rajiva

What?, why?. Its a bit of a fudge, the use of the autoguide port, internal integration with the drive would have been ideal, but its a retrofit, so its the easiest way to provide correction. If you use an ASCOM hub, I cant see any reason why guide corrections cant be applied with both this system and a guide cam at the same time?.

[Bassnut (Fred)]

Oh Rajiva, you quote ASA as a source of anything that actually works?, as if they are perveyors of usable equipment?. I wouldnt trust them with laying a brick. With the experience of others here, and samples of products so very bad they were actually totally unusable, thats a very bad quote.

[rajiva]

Hi Fred,

Originally Posted by Bassnut

What?, why?.

because of the Dead-time of 2 Seconds.

If you use an ASCOM hub, I cant see any reason why guide corrections cant be applied with both this system and a guide cam at the same time?.

If I use a PC and a ASCOM hub to get a guide cam doing the guiding job I can't see any reason why pay such a lot money for a system that i do not need in a autoguiding environment. Any autoguider will do the complete RA and DEC job perfectly so what is the point to spend the money for a RA correction only?

Even autoguiding without the need of a PC (stand alone) is much cheaper then this system that requires additional guiding equipment. In my opinion the TDM is simply waste of money.

CS
Rajiva