Light Pollution from next door!

Poita (Peter) · #1 28-09-2011, 11:31 AM

Wondering if anyone can help me out with some ideas or even tell me if I have a real problem.

Until two days ago I was blessed with a backyard that gave me very dark skies. I live on the edge of a small town and the skies are glorious.

However last night my backyard was a blaze of light, next door has converted to a Bed & Breakfast, and put in a carpark alongsied my backyard, and have put permanent lighting posts in (about six of them) about 4ft off the ground. They have also put outdoor lighting on all of the outside doors. Another six lights about 10ft off the ground. They are on 24hrs. I asked them this morning if they would consider putting them on a sensor light setup, or turn them off at midnight, but they firmly said no.

My night sky now appears completely washed out. My question is, does it just look washed out because of my now destroyed night vision, but would still be 'dark skies' for astrophotography, or even visual if I built an enclosure/observatory to sit in, or am I stuffed?

I was about to pull the trigger on a C14 setup and go semi permanent in the back yard, but now I'm not sure

adman (Adam) · #2 28-09-2011, 11:45 AM

I would imagine that because these people are running a business in a residential neighbourhood, there would be rules and regulations about not disturbing the quiet enjoyment of the area for others. Leaving lights on 24/7 would be an issue for many people - not just us astro folks. Might be worth some enquiries with the council or whoever regulates that stuff....

I know that if you run a business from home that generates too much extra traffic in a residential street, you can be made to close down. If you can maybe have a chat to the neightbours on the other side of the B&B, maybe you will find that they don't like the night being turned to day either. A few well placed complaints - especially from several different people can have more impact than your voice alone.

Good luck!
Adam

Poita (Peter) · #3 28-09-2011, 11:48 AM

Good advice!
I spoke to the council this morning, because the local pool is in our street, we aren't zoned as purely residential, and unless the lighting intrudes into the house, apparently they are allowed to do it.
The B&B is on the street corner, the other side of the road is bushland, we are the only neighbour unfortunately so I can't rally any extra supporters. It is such a bummer, I chose this location because it was dark and quiet.

Assuming I can't get a solution for getting the lights turned off (I'd be willing to pay for sensor lights!) then does the light from next door affect photography, or is it just shutting down my eyes so to speak?

Quote:

Originally Posted by adman

I would imagine that because these people are running a business in a residential neighbourhood, there would be rules and regulations about not disturbing the quiet enjoyment of the area for others. Leaving lights on 24/7 would be an issue for many people - not just us astro folks. Might be worth some enquiries with the council or whoever regulates that stuff....

I know that if you run a business from home that generates too much extra traffic in a residential street, you can be made to close down. If you can maybe have a chat to the neightbours on the other side of the B&B, maybe you will find that they don't like the night being turned to day either. A few well placed complaints - especially from several different people can have more impact than your voice alone.

Good luck!
Adam

adman (Adam) · #4 28-09-2011, 01:02 PM

It will probably affect it to some degree, but if you can shield your scope from any direct light, it will help. It kind of depends how much light goes upwards and illuminates the 'air' where your scope is pointing, and how much light is reflected off your surrounding and finds its way into your scope. Depending on just how bright it is, it will probably be more of an issue for your dark adaptation.

Best way is to go out and take some pics and compare them to the ones you have taken previously.

Adam

Visionoz (Bill) · #5 28-09-2011, 01:26 PM

Oh dear! Doesn't sound good Peter

Thought that council rules dictate that before the neighbors start a business from home that they should get "approval" from surrounding neighbors - that's the rule here in Perth anyway!

Anyway really bad luck with "ugly" neighbors like that as you can't get rid of them - except that you move away!

Hope you can sort that out - try it out first anyway

Good luck

Cheers
Bill

Poita (Peter) · #6 28-09-2011, 01:36 PM

Apparently the business has been running for a few years, I just didn't realise it. Only the landscaping and lighting for the carpark part is new.
Our fence is an old wooden one and the light blasts through it. The light hits the large tree on the other side of my house and lights it up massively.

I'm hoping that the sky itself isn't washed out so to speak, just my night adaptation. Rain has rolled in today, when the weather improves I'll try some photography and shielding myself and the scope from the light however I can and see how the sky looks.

alistairsam · #7 28-09-2011, 03:38 PM

Peter,

I really feel sorry for you, I can imagine what it must feel like.
I'm pretty sure your periphery would be washed out as these would be powerful lights and its bound to scatter a lot especially given the proximity.
you can make out the difference by turning on a light in your backyard behind you while looking at the sky in the opposite direction. does affect imaging a fair bit.

But worth a try imaging in the opposite direction. just a 1 min exposure would do.

you might want to think of light pollution filters, visual or AP, there are lots of threads and posts here, I've tried an Astronomik UHC filter from my backyard in melbourne, and it does improve the contrast.
would depend on which lamps these are and the filters pass band.
good luck

jjjnettie (Jeanette) · #8 28-09-2011, 05:33 PM

I live in a similar situation to you. Living on the edge of a rural township. Dark skies etc etc
I have to put up with the back yard flood lights from 3 neighbours. 2 on one side, and one behind me. (I'm on a corner)
I can drape a tarp over my clothes line, and so arrange it that 2 floodlights are blocked, the other, well, it only effects my night vision, as there is a pepper tree blocking the sky in that direction.
Your astro imaging shouldn't be affected too badly, so long as you can block off the source of light, preventing it from causing internal reflections.
I suggest you install a big ugly looking wall to suit this purpose. Maybe paint the opposing side hot pink, or lime green. And when they ask you to change the colour, you can firmly say, NO.

Poita (Peter) · #9 29-09-2011, 04:29 AM

I like your style!

The added complication is that I am renting, but I love the wall idea

I have a huge ancient hills hoist, and a chook pen with 10ft high steel posts, I can probably rig up some sort of light shield. The monster tree on my eastern side (lights are on the western side) really does reflect a lot of light back into the yard unfortunately.
Maybe I can train the possums to unscrew lightbulbs...

I'll try offering to pay for sensor lights, and see what happens.

darbyvet (Carl Darby) · #10 29-09-2011, 06:18 AM

What a bummer Peter,
I am in a small town, but the neighbor behind my house has an annoying security light that shines across my yard.It actually illuminates my patio where I image.It does not seem to have affected my planetary images at all.I think if you put a nice dew shield on the c14 to block stray light you will be fine.You may have more issues with deep space.You may want to try your c14 in different spots in your yard to see where you get the best images.You may fins the motion sensor lights more annoying.I had them on my garage and they scared the crap out of me a few times by clicking on in the middle of the night when I was out imaging.

Carl

Alchemy (Clive) · #11 29-09-2011, 06:27 AM

What can I say, been through it myself, long story......

In a nutshell

I told them I was building an observatory could you keep lighting reasonable ( no problems they say)
I build the observatory ( they put up 8 .. Yes 8 cheap floodlights)
I take a photo of my yard being drowned in light ( how rude of me to complain they say)
I put in 60 thats 60 leightons green Cyprus trees, close down the observatory, turn it into a mower shed. Scope sits inside while I ponder.
Eventually I bold up and build another as far away from their lights as possible hidden by the house.

We've since had other problems with the neighbors... I no longer care they can rot. Trees are growing nicely , unfortunately their view will be somewhat curtailed.... What a pity.

Have bought a mono camera so I can do narrowband where their lights won't have any effect.

Your neighbors don't and won't give a toss, leave a broken down car on the nature strip, don't mow it and see how they like your life impinging on theirs.

Hmmmm that felt good, nice rant early in the morning. Have a nice day all

Poita (Peter) · #12 29-09-2011, 09:10 AM

It gets better, I asked the real estate agent to contact the owners of the house I am renting, I thought they may be able to complain that it would impinge on their ability to rent the house.

Guess who the owners turned out to be?

bojan · #13 29-09-2011, 11:56 AM

Your landlord?

ZeroID (Brent) · #14 29-09-2011, 12:28 PM

The light shield seems a good idea but you are lucky in that you are renting. Easier to find another location than having to sell up just to satisfy the urge for dark skies. One option anyway ...

Very inconsiderate of them really .. even some light shields on the worst lights might help.

Osirisra (Ken) · #15 29-09-2011, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poita

It gets better, I asked the real estate agent to contact the owners of the house I am renting, I thought they may be able to complain that it would impinge on their ability to rent the house.

Guess who the owners turned out to be?

OMG! that has got to be the worst, not only do they sound like a pair of inconsiderate twats but they own the house you are living in...ouch man.

I feel your pain, I have got street lights and stupid people with their blinding over the top patio lights on all hours for no reason at all.

Love the idea of a light bulb destroying possum army!

Poita (Peter) · #16 29-09-2011, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bojan

Your landlord?

You got it. I couldn't believe it when they told me.

Anyway...
The parking-lot lights are spheres on posts, so they really give off light in all directions.

I''ll make an longer dew shield and see how I go. Give me something to do until the rain stops.

Moving isn't an option at the moment, but yeah, at least I didn't buy the place and get hit with light-happy neighbours.

I can probably find a dark site within a 15 minute drive, but a C14 is a bit heavy I believe, so I'll try and do the best possible and hope for the occasional blackout

Or maybe a carbon tax will make them change their ways... It must be costing them a fortune to leave them on all night, every night.

mishku · #17 29-09-2011, 12:59 PM

There was a fairly high profile case in Melbs a few years back. I believe the key is to make sure your light shield has a bright, mirrored, reflective image of Pamela Anderson doing her best to look sultry. You might end up with resolution quicker than you realise

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjjnettie

I live in a similar situation to you. Living on the edge of a rural township. Dark skies etc etc
I have to put up with the back yard flood lights from 3 neighbours. 2 on one side, and one behind me. (I'm on a corner)
I can drape a tarp over my clothes line, and so arrange it that 2 floodlights are blocked, the other, well, it only effects my night vision, as there is a pepper tree blocking the sky in that direction.
Your astro imaging shouldn't be affected too badly, so long as you can block off the source of light, preventing it from causing internal reflections.
I suggest you install a big ugly looking wall to suit this purpose. Maybe paint the opposing side hot pink, or lime green. And when they ask you to change the colour, you can firmly say, NO.

Alchemy (Clive) · #18 29-09-2011, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poita

It gets better, I asked the real estate agent to contact the owners of the house I am renting, I thought they may be able to complain that it would impinge on their ability to rent the house.

Guess who the owners turned out to be?

That makes the answer simple...... MOVE. Fortunately it's a rental so you do have that option

AdrianF (Adrian) · #19 29-09-2011, 05:26 PM

Get a few of those sheets that are black on one side and silvery on the other and set ut a shield black your side silver theirs.

Adrian

cfranks (Charles) · #20 30-09-2011, 12:11 PM

A suggestion that is a little expensive to start, buy a set of NarrowBand filters and start exploring that phase of the hobby. You will find that H-alpha will ignore those lights and there are some superb images to be obtained.

Charles