Higgs Bosen question

[xelasnave]

I said as a joke that dark matter may be simply groupings of HB's in space.
After I realized how little I understood the HB.

All I know is this. THe HB is thought to exist to give matter mass and there exists a HB field...now I have no idea the extent of this field .. does anyone know if a HB field is very big or very small?

It would seem if the HB is to do its job a HB field must exist everywhere even in remote space...in case some matter gets out there we will need HB's to tell the matter its mass and so it would seem the HB field could be everywhere... I mean I really dont know how to see the HB field and where they are thought to operate and how they are thought to operate.

I ask because nothing I have read gives me a clue.

alex

[CraigS]

Do you mean a Higgs Field ?

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Yes Craig I think so ... in the standard model there is reference to the Higgs Mechanism and the need for such a field and much upon why etc but I cant understand how it will occupy space ..being a field I would think it continues to exist outside matter in much the way magnetism is not limited to the magnet.
Can we see it as similar to a magnetic field... in fact any help may help me consolidate what I have read.

alex

[CraigS]

Alex;

It seems that a physical description, (or mechanical mechanism), of ANY field is difficult to articulate. (Knowing a little of what you usually seek, I'm going to take a punt that this is what you're after).

And I'll answer it from my own knowledge .. I have no idea how to give you what you seek.

I'm happy for someone who understands QM to handle this one.

Cheers

[Robh (Rob)]

Don't look to me for details but I found this useful ...

http://en.wikinoticia.com/culture-sc...on-for-dummies

Regards, Rob

[Robh (Rob)]

This is a better communicated version ...
http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~djm/higgsa.html

Rob

[xelasnave]

Thanks Rob.
Rather interesting analogy ... so politicians can be useful if only to spice up an explanation of physics

Having read this material( and other stuff) it seems the suggestion is that the Higgs field exists everywhere (a hypothetical lattice through out space )... no doubt Peter pinched such a concept from the push universe....

Anyways howe very interesting when one considers the magnitude of this field... I did think and the suggestion is it is everywhere.

So HBs must be everywhere as well is a safe conclusion if no one says contrary.... assuming we are working in a universe that does in fact have HBs...

Now all these HBs are there to make up the field that is everywhere.... my next question would be.... are they at rest or are they traveling all over at or near the speed of light.... I cant imagine they sit still.

I wonder if CERN does not find any will they conclude they are or are not in our universe...

alex

[CraigS]

Hi Alex;

A recent Physicsworld article gives an update on things at CERN LHC.

In the Section on Supersymmetry:

But earlier this month CMS reported that it had found nothing new so far, ruling out supersymmetric particles with masses of less than about 0.5 TeV/c{squared}. And in November the experiment reported no signs of long-lived supersymmetric gluons (gluinos), which should arise if a more recent take on SUSY called split-supersymmetry is correct.

CMS's sister experiment, ATLAS, is expected to report on its own searches for such exotic new particles in the next few weeks, although it has already ruled out quark sub-structure and exotic particles lighter than 1.26TeV/c{squared}. And with the LHC due to restart next month after its winter shutdown and accumulate data at an even higher rate – perhaps also at a higher energy – decades of theoretical research into physics beyond the Standard Model (along with, of course, the mechanism that gives elementary particles their mass) will soon be put squarely on the line.

"Given that the LHC is just starting to dig into the territory relevant for the hierarchy problem, it's hardly surprising that the machine isn't turning up evidence for anything new in the very first analyses of the data collected at half its ultimate energy," says Arkani-Hamed. "But even if no extra dimensions are found, that would be perfectly fine by me – after all, we're in the truth business!"

First time I've seen a scientist say they were in the truth business.
(Mind you, I think he's speaking in another sense of the word).

This would suggest that no matter what they find, the Standard Particle Model & appropriate theory will be adjusted accordingly.
(At least as far as Arkani-Hamed is concerned).

Cheers

[xelasnave]

Hi Craig Thanks for all of that.

I have never seriously thought that firstly....

a) that they would not find it ...given the investment I would like to think the project was allowed to proceed because the chances of success were very high ..as they should be to justify the investment of money and people on such a scale.

and secondly

b) if they did not find it that the standard model would be adjusted to run without a HB.

I like the concept of the Higgs mechanism as it is so close to the push gravity idea ... they think attraction rules and of course I know that it does not and all forces are of fundamentally a push mechanical nature.

The standard model universe works via a particle that attracts and repels whereas the push universe works by particles pushing (not attracting or repelling)...so I do feel we are close

On a side note about CERN.... a cynical friend asked me...over a beer

"What is the military interest in CERN as you dont get that sort of funding unless there is a military payoff"

I was horrified but the more I thought the more I wondered....mmmm....

alex

[CraigS]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Hi Craig Thanks for all of that.

I have never seriously thought that firstly....

a) that they would not find it…

and secondly

b) if they did not find it ….

How about seriously thinking that they won't find it ? A bit lopsided there Alex.

Originally Posted by xelasnave

I like the concept of the Higgs mechanism as it is so close to the push gravity idea ... they think attraction rules and of course I know that it does not and all forces are of fundamentally a push mechanical nature.

.. of course … (groan) …

Originally Posted by xelasnave

On a side note about CERN.... a cynical friend asked me...over a beer

"What is the military interest in CERN as you dont get that sort of funding unless there is a military payoff"

I was horrified but the more I thought the more I wondered....mmmm….

another conspiracy theory !!! I love conspiracy theories .. I've got a few of my own !! ...
Man, it would be fun to visit your pub sometime !! (Except my theory here is that ex-patriots leave after too many beers, and experiment with push gravity models involving rock throwing (at moving vehicles … )


Cheers

[xelasnave]

I am just in a playful mood to day Craig ...the Sun is out and its a holiday.
Have a great day.
alex

[avandonk]

I have been to the Synchrotron in Grenoble France. This is a very expensive machine. The politicians most probably have no concept of what it really is. They are after all scientifically ignorant. You have to tell porkies to politicians if you want your great big shiny machine to do experiments. Just say with a wink it will give them world domination and the wallet will be opened. They are only interested in power as they completely lack any redeeming human attributes.
The LHC is the same. It may give us an insight into the putative Higg's Boson.
It may give us some answers. If we do not look at all we are fools.
Bert

[CraigS]

The LHC is … well … such a European machine … wouldn't you say so ?

Everyone co-operating … sharing the burden of the cost …. sharing the rewards of the venture … everyone living close together in harmony … how could anyone say it should have been elsewhere ..?… so very European ..



Cheers

[avandonk]

Craig I went into Grenoble and got pissed. I spent a night in a bar called 'Le Hades' in a 17th century building. The decor was Medieval! When I got back to the Synchrotron one of the armed guards (there is a Nuclear Reactor on site) did not even want to see my pass. They knew where I had been and what I had done! They were to a man the equivalent of our SAS. They just knowingly waved me through.
The LHC is a vast machine an I applaud the people who designed it. I hope to live long enough to see some real results!
As an aside when the Synchrotron at Grenoble first started they had difficulty controlling the beam. It turned out that tidal forces were distorting the whole ring due to tidal distortion of the granite the ring was built in.

bert

[CraigS]

Glad to hear you made an 'Australian contribution' at Grenoble Bert !

The LHC: I'd love to visit it. I reckon it would be an awesome eye-popper.

"Tidal distortion" …??… what is this ? Gravitational or geo-magnetic ?

Cheers

[sjastro]

I like the concept of the Higgs mechanism as it is so close to the push gravity idea ... they think attraction rules and of course I know that it does not and all forces are of fundamentally a push mechanical nature.

Yeah sure Alex.

If so here are a few questions.

(1) What is the Lagrangian of your system?
(2) What is the symmetry group for the Lagrangian to be invariant?
(3) How does spontaneous symmetry breaking occur for the formation of push particle mass?

I'm sure the sentences are goobledygook but in it lies your answers as to what a Higgs field, mechanism, and boson are.
I'm afraid analogies as provided by Rob are as about as close as one can come to explaining the Higgs mechanism without going into the mathematics which makes GR look very simple.

Particle physicists are confident of finding the Higgs boson.
In a strange twist of fate the predictions of the standard model have gone beyond the Higgs boson.
The discovery of the W and Z bosons in the 1980s require the existence of the Higgs boson.
If there was a a "timeline of discovery", the Higgs boson should have been discovered before the W and Z bosons.
The Higgs mechanism predated electroweak theory which predicted the W and Z bosons.

Regards

Steven

[avandonk]

Originally Posted by CraigS

Glad to hear you made an 'Australian contribution' at Grenoble Bert !

The LHC: I'd love to visit it. I reckon it would be an awesome eye-popper.

"Tidal distortion" …??… what is this ? Gravitational or geo-magnetic ?

Cheers

Tidal implies gravitational!

Yes it was an eye opener. All my concepts for x-ray optics was existing in reality at Grenoble. The Australian Synchrotron in Clayton has got beam lines for Protein Crystallography based on designs from our laboratory in Parkville at CSIRO.

Bert

[xelasnave]

Is it reasonable to conclude that if the Higgs field exists that the components of the field are the hunted HBs and that they must travel thru space at speeds near C..

and would they not travel in all possible trajectories???..

so that at any (and every point in the Universe) point HBs will pass by at every conceivable angle or trajectory.... in the same way I suggest particles fly all over in a push Universe...otherwise what do we have.. All the HBs sitting around all over in states of rest waiting for some matter to pass by upon which it can pounce and give it mass.... and so if we have (or must have in my view) a universal field that permeates all there is (both space and matter) could we not consider such to be the aether thrown out by MM?
How does the aether, as first proposed by the Greeks way back when they had multiple Gods with each overseeing his particular department, differ significantly from the field proposed by the Higgs mechanism.... and given the reasonable expectation as to the enormity of numbers of HBs in space and matter could the mass of HBs be linked to the dark matter we seek to explain observed gravitational anomalies and abnormalities...why could it not be that GR merely describes the universal flow of HBs ...and also what contribution do HBs have on gravity?

To recap... how fast do HBs travel and in what direction?

alex

[xelasnave]

AND I have to check my numbers ....
IS not neutrino of considerably less mass than a HB?

If so does that not confuse the issue... as it would suggest particles exist with mass but of less mass than the HB... how could this be?

In fact I am sure there must be various particles with mass less than the HB... if so this suggests that it is the operation of the field that gives mass not the interaction between a hb and matter...the same as the push universe machinery

I am now going over to the Drake Pub for a progress report on the tracking of planet X and discuss how we can make a gun barrel with a bore the diameter of a HB (higgs bulet).

alex

[sjastro]

Off topic but a story of human interest.

My sister who is a psychologist was appointed by the mangement of the Australian Synchroton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Synchrotron ) to deal with the collapsing work environment.

Horror stories abound such as particle physicists using the synchroton as a racing track for cars as a protest against management.

Still my sister claims it's easier to deal with particle physicists than mathematicians.

I have no idea where she got that idea.

Regards

Steven