My Sister has a peculiar problem

Doug · #1 14-12-2010, 10:38 AM

I must be part of a peculiar family

On a recent visit to my sister at Nambucca heads, she showed me an odd problem.
She has a standard definition tv ans a vhs recorder.
Reception on all channels is 1st class.
She can record and play back probably most channels ok, (ch 10 tested)
ch 2 is unwatchable on playback; presumably the problem comes at the recording stage.

Tried using a new tape with same results.
If ch 2 reception was poor, that would explain it but as the reception is A grade............
I just can't think of anything to suggest she try other than spending money she doesn't have on new equipment.
Any ideas anyone?

Kal (Andrew) · #2 14-12-2010, 10:42 AM

My guess would be this:

The tv wil have a tuner, and the VCR will have a tuner. When watching tv you are utilising the TV tuner. When recording you will be utililising the VCR tuner. The VCR doesn't have channel 2 tuned in properly. Hence you can watch it but cannot record it.

jenchris (Jennifer) · #3 14-12-2010, 11:06 AM

yup that sounds right

Doug · #4 14-12-2010, 11:12 AM

G'day Kal, no, She has an older VCR. The setup is:
Antenna to TV>>Composite cables to VCR (Red White Yellow)
On play Back, VCR >>Composite cables to TV, set to 'AV'
The only tuner is the TV's tuner.
If all channels recorded/played back poorly then the problem solution would be more simple.....but it seems only ch 2 is a problem, but only for recording/playback reception is OK. I think the same head is used for both record and playback so this would seem an unlikely problem source, besides as I said it seems to be related to ch 2 only. The TV shows ch2 quality as about 82% all channels are in the 80s. Here at home I have the same model TV set up in the bedroom and it gives good reception for ch 44 (TVS) but shows only 37% Q so I can't see that signal Q is going to be a player here.
There seems little point in trying the recorded tape on someone elses VCR as ch 10 is ok and recordings of ch 2 made from her older analogue TV were ok. It is only since changing to the digital TV that this problem has occured.

Barrykgerdes · #5 14-12-2010, 01:17 PM

Does old vcr also have an RF output. If so it is probable on the same channel as Channel 2. Hence the signal won't record because it is being interfered with by the VCR RF output that is obviously not being used. I have seen this cause the effect being refered to.

Barry

Doug · #6 14-12-2010, 01:27 PM

G'day Barry, not a bad thought. I don't know but I'll ask sis to have a look. -100% technically inclined as she is, it might take some time to find out.

jenchris (Jennifer) · #7 14-12-2010, 01:48 PM

Buy her a HDD recorder for xmas - they're not expensive......

Doug · #8 14-12-2010, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenchris

Buy her a HDD recorder for xmas - they're not expensive......

Dick Smith has a good one for about 69$ I know because I bought one so I could record wagon train on 73. But I doubt she could set it up so sh'e have to wait til I can go up there again and that would mean an overnight stay in a motel. Cheeper if I record what she wants and post it up to her.
we could get Aust Post to run a relay with mem sticks

GeoffW1 (Geoff) · #9 14-12-2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug

G'day Kal, no, She has an older VCR. The setup is:
The only tuner is the TV's tuner.

Hi,

That's interesting. It is the first I ever heard of older VCRs not having a tuner, still, I have not seen all of them.

Also you refer to your TV as standard definition. You do mean digital? Edit: Yes you do, if it gets Ch44.

The reason for my confusion is that VCRs belong to the analogue TV era, and many, even most, of those TVs did not have a signal output from their own tuners.

Anyway, whatever the truth of that, I was going to suggest that the tuner in the VCR (if it has one) is certainly analogue, and you may not be able to get a good analogue picture for Ch2 where you are, but a good signal for Ch2 digital does come in, on the TV.

Sorry if I just confused things further

Cheers

Doug · #10 14-12-2010, 07:06 PM

Well Geoff, the VCR is 500 odd km away so I don't want to argue the tuner issue. As I stated earlier, the TV output is fed to the VCR by way of composite Video cable +audio ie Yellow, Red and White cables and returned during playback via the same cables to the AV input.
OK I just looked at my old VCR and you are right enough it does have its own tuner, but the setup being used excludes any on board tuner as said previous, the recording and play back are via composite video, as it was when she only had the analogue tv.

Kal (Andrew) · #11 15-12-2010, 12:35 AM

So when you record you set the tv to the channel you want and record the "AV" channel on the VCR yes?

Doug · #12 15-12-2010, 08:36 AM

Kal, the TV is set to the channel to be recorded. The TV input is only set to AV when playing back the recorded program. This is the same procedure as was used in earlier times when she had an analogue receiver. In those days I believe, Ch 2 record/play back was as good as any of the other channels. But yes, I guess you could say that she records the AV channel (output) though I would not have thought of it in those terms.

Jaybee (John) · #13 16-12-2010, 01:42 AM

Doug
I think you are misinterpreting the setup. Many moons ago I used to install Tv Antenna's, I did this for close to 15 years which included the release of these new fangled gadgets called VCR's. Even the first VCRs which could also double as anchors for the QEII, had tuners and recording was always done through the VCR's Tuner, not the TV's. Old Analogue TV's also did not have outputs, only inputs, so the Yellow, red & white cables would only be inputs to the AV of the TV. In the 15 years I was in the industry I never saw a VCR that recorded from a TV, so unless your sister has a custom built setup, I think you'll find that the VCR is recording its own tuner. The easiest way to test this is to set a timer recording, or just set it recording, with the tv turned off. If it records something, then its not recording from the TV

Doug · #14 16-12-2010, 08:12 AM

Thank you John, you might be right in what you say. If you are, and if my information is correct then the problem is worse. If she is trying to record ch2 with the same tuner used as when she had the analogue TV (which I understand gave good recordings), we need to understand why the same video output equipment is selectively screwing up the av output only for ch2.
I guess in the light of what you are suggesting, I will need to ask more pointed questions of her. I'll phone her later and verify that this problem is only sinse aquiring the digital TV. logically, it should have been an issue even with the analogue TV.

telemarker (Keith) · #15 17-12-2010, 10:56 AM

Probably a long shot but...... If it is connected as stated then its possible that the signal sent for the tv is being interpreted by the VCR as possessing a Macrovision signal and stuffing up the gain control on the VCR during recording. What are the symptoms of the playback errors? From what I remember they usually include a moving dark band, very bright image that wavers alot in intensity and image distortion that moves up and down the tv.

Doug · #16 18-12-2010, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kal

My guess would be this:

The tv wil have a tuner, and the VCR will have a tuner. When watching tv you are utilising the TV tuner. When recording you will be utililising the VCR tuner. The VCR doesn't have channel 2 tuned in properly. Hence you can watch it but cannot record it.

Kal, I owe you an apology. Yes the VCR does have a tuner!
At this point in time I have found out that ch2 was recording ok with the new DTV, but she moved home and since that move ch2 only is no good.
Im waiting for her to look at the connections the removalists made when they moved her things, yet still it is odd that ch2 is the only one that wont record.
On the other hand I guess she would be better served by getting an HD set top recorder, as analogue is or is about to be a thing of the past. When the TV stations switch off their analoge equipment, she wont be recording anything.
cheers,
Doug

Screwdriverone (Chris) · #17 19-12-2010, 12:25 AM

Hi Doug,

All very good suggestions so far, but BEFORE you go and buy anything else, do this VERY simple and cheap test.

I suspect that the quality of the RCA cables that link the TV to the AV input on the VCR are probably poor quality or standard types which in my experience are not much chop. (worth about 2c)

This is fine for most things but if the Yellow Video cable is damaged internally (possibly when she moved the VCR, the cables were probably wound around the VCR and then transported) then the RCA cable is picking up interference when using Channel 2.

This could be because the Channel 2 signal is a lot lower in the frequency band than the others (even on Digital, the carrier is still lower than the other VHF and channels). Therefore, if the cable is picking up garbage or interference from other devices or even the VCR RF output, you can quickly get your sister to test it by;

Swap the Red and the Yellow cables around. That means pull out BOTH ends of the red and BOTH ends of the Yellow and then plug the Yellow into the red (both ends) and vice versa.

Try recording Ch2 again, if it improves, then LEAVE it. Colours mean nothing other than matching the plugs to the cables when you stick your head behind the cabinet etc.

If the Red swap fixes it, you should now have a clean Ch2 pic and probably no noise being induced into the sound channel. Check recording on the other TV channels and see if they're OK too.

It could also be that the VCR output from its tuner is on Channel 2 and even though the VCR is say recording AV1 from the TV, the NICE LOUD TUNER RF Carrier SIGNAL is still spraying out of the back of the TV and into the Yellow RCA cable.

If this works, but still shows noise when using the Red cable for the Video, then I suggest that you could change the output channel on the VCR tuner to say, Channel 0 or 1 using the VCR menu or failing that, go down to Jaycar, Dick Smith or Harvey Norman etc, and buy some QUALITY (approx $30) RCA shielded cables with gold connectors on the ends.

The amount of times I have chucked away crapola RCA cables because they break inside or receive noise from other devices has been numerous. The quick cable swap should hopefully improve things or at least a quality set of RCA cables would be a good investment anyway, considering the way the signals are connected between the Digital TV and the VCR.

ALSO, when the analogue signals are switched off, she WILL be able to record TV as you have her already recording Digital TV coming out of the RCA plugs from the TV now! The only thing that wont then work is the analogue tuner on the VCR....which she isnt using anyway.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

Chris

mithrandir (Andrew) · #18 19-12-2010, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Screwdriverone

This is fine for most things but if the Yellow Video cable is damaged internally (possibly when she moved the VCR, the cables were probably wound around the VCR and then transported) then the RCA cable is picking up interference when using Channel 2.

This could be because the Channel 2 signal is a lot lower in the frequency band than the others (even on Digital, the carrier is still lower than the other VHF and channels).

That's a bit odd Chris. It is certainly not true in Sydney where ABC DTV is ch 12. (Seven is on 6, Nine on 8, and TEN on 11. Everything else is UHF.) True, ABC analog is on ch 2 but ABA are trying to clear all TV off the VHF band I.

According to the ABA all TV for the Manning River area is on VHF band III (137-230MHz) and UHF band V (582-820MHz). ABC is on ch 7 (DTV) and ch 6 (analog). NEN is on ch9 (DTV) and ch 8 (analog).

Every VCR I've ever dealt with either used VHF band I (45-70MHz) channels to retransmit to the TV, or they used composite video. I can't see how you'd get interference between VHF I and VHF III.

Andrew