TEC 110mm fluorite triplet

[gregbradley]

Here is the latest photo of the prototype TEC110mm fluorite triplet.
Tube is not painted yet.

I am one of 20 who ordered one from the first run.

I am hoping it will be an upgrade over my Tak FSQ106ED which I think it will be although the FSQ will be a hard act to beat.

http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/t...guid=182618973

Greg.

[wavelandscott (Scott)]

TEC makes some nice stuff!

I hope you enjoy it when you get it!

[Waxing_Gibbous (Peter)]

Dribble!

[Zaps]

Wow, this is so going to please a lot of American wide field astrophotographers. I know it sticks in the craw of many of them that they have to buy and use the FSQ instead of an American made telescope.

[Kal (Andrew)]

Very nice!

Got some more info on it? What focal length? Will it have a dedicated flattener?

[rally]

Greg,

Curious to know in what way you would hope it to be better than a FSQ ?

The FSQ is amazingly well corrected across a huge spectrum and it has a large quite flat field.
The surface finish the Takahashi optics is very high and so its resolving capability will almost always exceed seeing conditions.

So I can only think its the off axis diffraction inherent in the Petval design or some mechanical issue ?

How much better can it actually be ?

Like I said just curious

Rally

[anj026]

Thanks for posting Greg, it looks great!

[gregbradley]

Originally Posted by Kal

Very nice!

Got some more info on it? What focal length? Will it have a dedicated flattener?

I think its around 630mm and a separate field flattener is available specifically for this model which I have also ordered as I sometimes use large chipped cameras.

Greg.

[gregbradley]

Curious to know in what way you would hope it to be better than a FSQ ?

The FSQ is amazingly well corrected across a huge spectrum and it has a large quite flat field.
The surface finish the Takahashi optics is very high and so its resolving capability will almost always exceed seeing conditions.

So I can only think its the off axis diffraction inherent in the Petval design or some mechanical issue ?

How much better can it actually be ?

Good question Rally as the FSQ106ED is a very good scope.
The focuser of the FSQ106ED has let some people down as it
can sag under heavy loads, the focuser lock isn't as good as the
106N model and causes focus to shift when engaged from totally unlocked. Additionally the coatings on the lenses when you look at them are a mustard green colour.

I noticed when the FSQ106ED first came out that images posted with it tended to lack colour saturation and looked very harsh, sharp but harsh.
Part of that may be processing skills but I find the scope to have a harsh effect on colours. Perhaps that is the different coatings Tak used on this model over other models.

Additionally I believe (perhaps wrongly) there is a small but distinct advantage to fluorite over FPL53 glass. Specifically in light scatter.
Yuri at TEC says he can measure this scatter from other glasses compared to fluorite. But fluorite primarily makes it easier for the scope maker to produce fast optics that are still colour free.

LZOS lenses and AP seem to be able to do that too.

Time will tell if this scope is as good or better than the FSQ106ED which as you say on paper is the bees knees (I have one and it is a nice scope). Don't let me put the FSQ106ED down here I am merely pointing out the weaknesses of a very nice instrument. It is not perfect.

I can't help feel that whilst the FSQ is a great scope there is room for a better scope in that similar size. Plus this 110mm is airline portable not that I plan to take it anywhere. The scope may be airline portable but a mount would not be! At least not for imaging anyway.

I also feel that Yuri is a bit like Roland Christen from AP where he makes unreal scopes that are freely available much like Roland did in the 90's and now is too swamped with orders to be freely available. One day Yuri's scopes will be like that too. Already his Mak Cass scopes are no longer made as are his 200mm fluorite and his 200mm ED. So grab one while they are available - it won't be forever.

Greg.

[AlexN]

I remember you showing the original plans of this thing a few months back when you ordered it... 110mm @ F/5.6 should be rather impressive for wide field action....

Mind letting us know what one of these babies is worth? I would imagine it to be priced similarly to the FSQ106 being that the FSQ will be its direct competition?

I agree I think the FSQ106 will be a tough act to beat, but as you say, fluorite vs FPL-53 definitely has its advantages... The older FSQ's that had fluorite lenses were said to produce very sharp, vibrant images..

I'd be very interested to see a write up once you have it, and definitely a head to head FSQ vs TEC... Comparisons between the TEC110/TAK FSQ/AP140/TEC180FL etc... You've owned/do own some of the most awesome refractors on the planet, I'd love to hear your thoughts of the strengths and weaknesses of them all...

[gregbradley]

Hi Alex,

Yes they are all awesome scopes and the differences at that level do become minor. Having said that its amazing how suddenly minor quirks become irritating given the cost of the instrument.

The TEC110mm fluorite triplet first run price was US$5500 plus I think about $700 for the flattener. Something like that. It comes with a case, rings
for that price so you don't have to buy the extra stuff like you do when you buy a Tak (ie, you need to buy rings, case). Tak competition would really
be the FCT100 which they no longer make. There is a TOA110mm planned but that would be FPL53 but I think 2 FPL53 lenses. That would be a tough competitor. But yes the FSQ106ED is about US$4,000 plus rings and case add another $600 so the FSQ is cheaper. Yuri is "cheap" really for what he makes.
For now I can give a quick review of TEC180 oiled fluorite triplet, AP140 FPL53 oiled triplet, FSQ106ED FSQ106N, Tak FS152 and 102;

TEC180. US$18,000 (its since gone up to US$19.000 I bought this as it really is the largest portable APO you can get. The 200mm fluorite must have been a private offering as it was never on Yuri's website and must have been for those in the know.
Still that is F8 so its longer and heavier and would need a beefy mount. Still... a Tak FCT200mm is US$150,000 so a fluorite triplet for US$28,000 or similar is a hell of "deal".

The 180 is manhandleable and at F7 is not super long. It is 1260mm focal length where my FS152 was 1200 so its not that much longer.
The dewshield has a weld line in which has been ground back but its a tad rough. The feathertouch focuser is fine and no complaint there.
The collet (a tightening ring where the focuser unit attaches to the tube) is nice and easy to use.

The rings are an unusual setup with a clip down type catch and the rings themselves are quite thin. The downside is you have to be careful putting the scope in and out of these rings as there have been a number of posts of guys who scratched their scopes this way. I also have some super well made German APM rings which are ridiculously heavy duty but super well made. Yuris rings make it a tad harder to balance the scope as you can't loosen them off and slide the scope along the rings like you can almost any other type but I open them and then slide the scope and then reclip them and get by that way. However there is no flexure and they hold the scope really well. They have a recessed piece of rubber as a lining. Its a different type to the conventional ring and it takes a little getting used so its not really a problem - just different.

The flattener has a flange on the end and a tightening ring that clmaps against an upturn on the unit. This is a little hard to engage but perhaps more sure footed than a regular screw on unit so perhaps no real complaint there only different.

Visually I can't say I have really put it through its paces that much but sure looked nice. I used Denk 11 Binos and a pair of 19mm Panoptics.
I also used an 8mm Ethos. Very nice views. Nothing to criticize there. Probably as good as anything in its class visually and better than almost anything I suspect.

As an imaging instrument it has proven to be very good. Sharp and capable of high resolution. I am able to image easily with a Tak NJP mount. I suspect any larger scope would require a heavier mount.

It comes with a nice case with wheels built in on one end, a bit like a Televue case. Only complaint is whilst it has handles front and rear it does not have one on its side which would be handy.

Overall a superb instrument and one I would not sell. Its a keeper and likely to be one of those famous scopes over time.

Score a 9.5 out of 10 (.5 for the awkwards rings and the slightly rough dewshield weld).


AP140 with 4 inch focuser, 155TCC (telecompressor to F5.7 or so corrected for even 16803 sized chips).

An extremely solid scope. First impressions are that this is one beautifully engineered scope. It weighs more than you expect but manhandleable.

I love everything about this scope except the dewshield which is scraping somewhere and taking the paint off.
I emailed AP about it and they wanted a photo of it but I never got around to it. I am sure they would handle it in
a second when I send back the photo. They were even nudging me to send the photo so they give great service.

The focuser is rock solid and super strong, the attachements hook together in a V shaped groove that is very strong and flexure free.
You can see Rolands 30 years or so of scope making expertise all built in to this marvellous instruments.

Visually it is stunning. More widefield than the 180 but man are those stars pinpoint - oh my god, I now have a new definition for what pinpoint stars look like and totally colourfree. Roland has lots of little tricks and tradesman secrets. Lots of bits of knowhow. How he does his triplets, what other types of glasses he puts together with his FPL53 main lens. For example I read where he said that the heat from your hand is enough to affect the lens during final hand figuring. So he polishes the lenses for a little while and leaves them for an hour to go back to room temp before he does more. Who else would be doing that eh? Roland is the ultimate technician and seeks out the absolute the best technical know how to achieve the best scope possible. He is a perfectionist and it shows in the scope.

It has the latest AP coatings and the greasless focuser with feathtouch microfocuser. All works very nicely. I think the feathertouch may slip a tad on going uphill with heavy gear (it most likely can be tightened).

The AP ring and dovetail system is fantastic and the best rings I have ever used. Perfect engineering and zero flexure yet easy to loosen and adjust the scope's balance.

Optics are perfect, tube is perfect lots of baffles - you know the tube is made out of a solid bar of aluminium and the baffles are cut in by the CNC machine??? Wow.

The case is old fashioned looking and easily marked having a vinyl material coating a thin plywood case but its functional and lots of handles.

The TCC is an optical marvel and there is no equivalent from other manufacturers. Only Roland has accomplished that (well I think so, perhaps Tak's super reducer is similar). It reduces .8 I think but also gives round stars to the corner of a really large field so the largest chips get pinpoint stars to the corners. Most reducers won't work with large chip cameras and you'll get coma in the corners. Not this baby.

I think this scope is capable of a lot more than I have put it through and intend to use it a lot more in the coming months. At 140mm and with F5.7 and a large 16803 camera it is probably one of the finest widefield imaging setups possible. Thomas Davis has shown that with his AP155
(the AP140 is a scaled version of the 155).

The collet for rotating the focuser is very large and heavy and a bit hard to use but it works. The TEC's is better.

a 10 out of 10 for this scope and I now see why AP scopes are held in such high regard.

FSQ106N:

A marvellous scope, built like a tank and dual fluorite lenses.
Has slight vignetting on bright stars at the outer edges of the image. You see a black bar going through them. It can be photoshopped.

Slightly out of focus in blue as far as colour correction showing images where the stars look a tad too blue and a bit of a slight blue halo around brighter stars.

Focuser and camera angle corrector work flawlessly as does the focuser lock.

Can't use binos and needs a special cutdown diagonal which is expensive.

Overall a marvellous scope. 9 out of 10.

FSQ106ED:

Smaller than its predecessor it does some things better than its earlier model and some things worse.

Can be used with binos and more user friendly as a visual instrument although F5 at 106mm is pretty widefield and perhaps not everyone's
cup of tea.

These scopes are more imaging instruments.

The new unit has a silly captains wheel which is meant to enable rotating the focuser instead of the camera angle rotator. It is pretty useless and opens the door to flexure. Best to keep it shut up.

The focuser lock on the otherwise best I have used microfocuser actually shifts the focus which is terrible. Critical focus on such a short fast scope is critical and you have to compensate by leaving that lock partially engaged whilst adjusting the focus.

Typical Tak quality. The sliding dewshield seems nicer and does not need tightening screws like the FSQ106N which probably merely wreck the paint on the tube.

The coatings on the lenses is what concern me. They are a mustard green colour.

Both the TEC and AP are more a light blue and the earlier FS series and FSQ were a grass green. This mustard green coating to me seems to harsh out the image with a lack of colour saturation and robs images of vibrancy. I can usually spot an FSQ106ED image because of this unwanted trait.

No vignetting though so that is an improvement.

So overall a great imaging machine but a step back mechanically than the FSQ106N but sharper optics better correction but at the cost of a lack of vibrancy in colour. Compare an FSQ106ED image to one taken through an AP 105mm Traveller and you'll see how much the coatings are robbing an otherwise sharp and colour aberration free image.

Score 8.5 out of 10.

FS series 102 and 152:

Nice and light but well built. For imaging these fluorite doublets have blue well out of focus so you get blue halos around bright stars. Not toooo bad but bad enough. Not effected if doing narrowband.

FS series scopes are great visual instruments though and fast cooldown.
My FS152 gave fantastic visual views with colour only showing on the moon's limb as a yellow/green fringe. Couldn't see colour on other bright objects.

7.5 out of 10

So in conclusion AP and TEC are the best I have used. I have no experience with APM/TMB apart from a William Optics 80mm Lomo triplet that was touted as super APO. That had bad misaligned rotating focuser that cause miscollimation and coma. I adjusted that and it gave great sharp colourfree views but a bit lacking in aperture for me. The focuser also was slightly oversized than 2 inches causing slop in fittings and tilt when imaging so a 5 out of 10 for that one.

Orion ED80.

A great scope for the money, light, sharp, some colour but not a lot, cheaply made compared to the above but functional. Fabulous bang for your buck.

7 out of 10.

Greg.

[Astrorish (Rishi)]

Hi Greg,

Nice run down of some fabulous scopes you have! Perhaps you could reformat it and submit it as a review? Otherwise it'll get lost on the forums. I only found it today by following a link posted on cloudynights.

Also I note you made special mention of stars thru the ap140, though not the tec?

And merry Christmas to all!