More pollution in China

[casstony]

http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/...tion-in-china/

This is an on-going story and I'm not sure what ordinary citizerns can do about it, but it should discourage purchase of goods from mainland China.

GSO is Taiwan based - is Synta?

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by casstony

This is an on-going story and I'm not sure what ordinary citizerns can do about it, but it should discourage purchase of goods from mainland China.GSO is Taiwan based - is Synta?

This is very distressing indeed but there's not much we can do about it. Anyone will still be looking for the cheapest deal. The main change needs to come from China and the way they handle things. Greed, corruption and exploitation. It doesn't have to be this way. But you can't expect supply & demand to do anything to make this situation better.

[Ric]

It's tragic to see that happening unchecked and nobody cares. Meanwhile our mob argue over a couple of percent in emission targets.

[casstony]

Maybe we can buy an alternative to a mainland China product when it doesn't cost much more. For example, I was thinking of ordering one of those North Optics ED80 triplets but I'll stick with my Synta ED80. (I checked and Synta is Taiwan based).

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

This is very distressing indeed but there's not much we can do about it. Anyone will still be looking for the cheapest deal. The main change needs to come from China and the way they handle things. Greed, corruption and exploitation. It doesn't have to be this way. But you can't expect supply & demand to do anything to make this situation better.

What are you on about Mark. Everything helps. Campaigns to stop purchasing from rouge companies and countries have forced changes in the past. You might want to reconsider your remark that "you can't expect supply & demand to do anything" Nothing at all? Are you sure about that? Because of course by encouraging us to do nothing alot of people will continue to be hurt. I'm sorry but I dont buy it when you say "This is very distressing indeed" and then continue with "but there's not much we can do about it" and"you can't expect supply & demand to do anything". Its just difficult to escape the conslusion that preserving the free market is a much higher ideal in your book then people.

[slippo74 (Cristiano)]

That is so sad but nothing can be really done. The big contradiction is that cheap stuff can be cheaper than ever without poisoning people and lands. Green energy and free-toxic materials can cut costs in production with no impact to quality and environment.
The real problem here is the huge economical interest from those providing primary resources to China industry ... and I'm sure they are not Chinese.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by FredSnerd

What are you on about Mark. Everything helps. Campaigns to stop purchasing from rouge companies and countries have forced changes in the past. You might want to reconsider your remark that "you can't expect supply & demand to do anything" Nothing at all? Are you sure about that? Because of course by encouraging us to do nothing alot of people will continue to be hurt. I'm sorry but I dont buy it when you say "This is very distressing indeed" and then continue with "but there's not much we can do about it" and"you can't expect supply & demand to do anything". Its just difficult to escape the conslusion that preserving the free market is a much higher ideal in your book then people.

You don't need any encouragement, you need a brain scan and a reality check. Take a deep breath... in .... out... in....

[Louwai (Bryan)]

My first comment would be that this web site is designed to do exactly what has happened here - create a reaction.
These pictures are true enough, but how old are they???
Is the text explaining each photo correct??
Is the noted date correct??


Personally I'd have concerns about Photo 11, showing "sewage" supposedly spewing into the yangtse River. It notes the pipe was extended 1500m. I know for a fact that ChangShu is several klm to the south of the Yangtse.
If you look at water in a creek that is lined with Tea trees, it is the exact same colour as what's coming out of that pipe, due to discolouration from the tree sap. But it's not polluted. I agree that this scenario is not what's happening here, but it is an alternative reason to water discolouration.


Photo 15 says Haimen CITY. Haimen was just down the rd from my place when I lived in China. I can tell you that it's lucky to be a country town, let alone a CITY.
It is called a city on this web site, I expect, to create a "larger" mental image of the issue in the mind of the reader.

I'd have reservations about the accuracy of some of the comments made.

Also,
The biggest problem in China is not Greed, Corruption or Exploitation. It's worker education. If the workers were educated about WH&S or Environmental issues they would do something about it.

The wages are horrendously low when compared to ours, BUT, so is the cost of living. Last August I was in Shanghai (an expensive city), I took 6 friends to a reasonably expensive restaurant. We ate & drank considerable amounts. The total bill was equivilent to AU$65. So when "do gooders" scream about exploited workers, maybe they should compare the income to the cost of living, not campare the income to Australian incomes.

Same for corruption. It is rife within China, BUT, most people have absolutely no idea that the actions they are taking are considered 'Corruption".
China society operates on "Guanxi" (connections). If you want something done you contact a 'friend' in the business. In many countries this system is considered Corruption, but in China its common everyday buisness.
The only thing that will change that is education.


Talk of boycotting Chinese procucts in general I think is not the solution. If you feel a boycott is called for, then I suggest that investigation is done into a specific company that is perceived as doing the wrong thing & boycott that specific companyif the investigation calls for it.


I'm not saying that the issues noted on this web site don't happen. I just think that they are being sensationalised to create a reaction within groups of people who can only rely on supplied information rather than first hand knowledge.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Interesting comments Bryan. Thanks for sharing your first hand experience having been there. Education is freedom but unfortunately not every government is willing to educate the masses. Harder to control. When you say wages are low but so is the cost of living does this mean the average chinese has the same buying power as the average australian? I don't feel exploited here if I can't afford white goods or luxury items but I certainly would feel the pinch if I worked long hours and didn't make enough to bring the basics at home such food on the table for the family and kids.

[blueskies123_89 (George)]

I agree with Bryan that boycotting is not a solution, it never is. It seems to me that the most basic cause for poverty is the lack of money, and boycotting will simply make that worse.

One has to remember that China is still a developing country, and hence should be judged as one. The progress made since the 90s to reach the living standards it has now, over a period of 20 years, is amazing.

Photos are selective and can be misleading, just as we are all aware from astronomical image processing. No one denies that these photos depict serious issues, but you cannot convert poverty into wealth in one day.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by Louwai

Talk of boycotting Chinese procucts in general I think is not the solution. If you feel a boycott is called for, then I suggest that investigation is done into a specific company that is perceived as doing the wrong thing & boycott that specific companyif the investigation calls for it.
.

Since China is run from the top down I think a general boycott is a reasonable course of action. It's also the only course of action that has a chance of being effective at a grassroots level, since Australians are simply not going to investigate individual companies before purchasing a product.

While it's always good to be sceptical, do you think these photo's are more likely to represent the true situation or more likely to be completely misrepresentative? It's so easy to be a slob and justify doing nothing.

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by casstony

Since China is run from the top down I think a general boycott is a reasonable course of action.

The truth is China is huge. The global market is massive. Its business and manufacturing is with the US, Asia and Europe. If Australia sunk into the sea they wouldn't even notice it. Most of them wouldn't even place Australia on the map anyway. Downunder we have the tendency to think we can influence the world market or the climate Don't get me wrong, there's a bunch of lovely people living here but you guys don't seem to see the whole picture in term of $. We're insignificant. You can boycott x100 all you want, it wouldn't make any difference in their cashbook.

[Louwai (Bryan)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

Interesting comments Bryan. Thanks for sharing your first hand experience having been there. Education is freedom but unfortunately not every government is willing to educate the masses. Harder to control. When you say wages are low but so is the cost of living does this mean the average chinese has the same buying power as the average australian? I don't feel exploited here if I can't afford white goods or luxury items but I certainly would feel the pinch if I worked long hours and didn't make enough to bring the basics at home such food on the table for the family and kids.

Mark,
I understand where you're coming from, but I feel you are still comparing with our society.
The general Chinese society thinks differently to us.
Close to where I lived was a small steel fabricator. One day a sheet of steel was delivered to the workshop. This steel was a std sheet of 6m x 2.4m & was 6mm thick I think. A considerable amount of weight.
To get this steel inside, approx 35 men arrived, they all lined up down each side, picked it up & carried it inside.
The owner had a forklift sitting at the side, but rather than having to spend money on the fuel, he just called a bunch of friends & they did it for nothing.
The steel worker would then 'owe' his friends a favour & he has saved money buy not using fuel.
This is an example of using "Guanxi" (Conections or friends)

Without knowing the background of this situation, some may feel that the steel worker was exploiting the others, but infact it was a form of Barter Card type system.

[Louwai (Bryan)]

Originally Posted by multiweb

The truth is China is huge. The global market is massive. Its business and manufacturing is with the US, Asia and Europe. If Australia sunk into the sea they wouldn't even notice it. Most of them wouldn't even place Australia on the map anyway. Downunder we have the tendency to think we can influence the world market or the climate Don't get me wrong, there's a bunch of lovely people living here but you guys don't seem to see the whole picture in term of $. We're insignificant. You can boycott x100 all you want, it wouldn't make any difference in their cashbook.

I agree Mark,
I have been in the office of manufacturers in China.
As soon as they hear I'm from Australia they are not interested.

their comment -
"Australia has a small population, not a big enough market. We are not interested in your business".

[multiweb (Marc)]

Originally Posted by Louwai

The owner had a forklift sitting at the side, but rather than having to spend money on the fuel, he just called a bunch of friends & they did it for nothing.

This is funny. I was told exactly the same thing about a leather manufacturing/sewing company that relocated its operation in China couple of years ago. They were trying to sell them those tables with micro holes and pressurised air (like the game where you push a plastic disk and score, same system). When you pile up 100s of layers of leather sheets it can weigh tones, so they use those "air tables" to slide the weight around. The chinese owner turned around and said he didn't need them. When asked why he said we'll just get more workers to shift the load around.

So this barter system is deeply engrained into their culture. God knows what else. It's going to take a lot of education and a couple of generations to see procedures put in places at all level. Pollution and environmental concerns are probably right at the bottom of their list if any.

[casstony]

Originally Posted by casstony

, since Australians are simply not going to investigate individual companies before purchasing a product.

I wrote the above with respect to 'Think global, act local'. Obviously Australia is an economic minnow and action would be required in other countries to have any effect. The fact that a given individual or population has a miniscule impact is not an excuse to do nothing.

We're naturally apathetic creatures (me included) and exceptionally skilled at justifying our inaction.

[citivolus (Ric)]

China is not alone in its responsibility for environmental issues. As an example, many countries have mandated ROHS style requirements for white goods, while in Australia lead based solders still dominate & we freely import all kinds of chemical crap. In Canada back in the late 90's, I lived a few kilometres from the largest polluting factory in Canada. It was a steel mill on the shore of Lake Ontario. Where do you think its waste discharged? You got it. Into the air and water.

[FredSnerd (Claude)]

Originally Posted by Louwai

I agree Mark,
I have been in the office of manufacturers in China.
As soon as they hear I'm from Australia they are not interested.

their comment -
"Australia has a small population, not a big enough market. We are not interested in your business".

This is a very narrow way of looking at the issue. What is clear from the last few years is that China is hell bent on becoming a member of the world club. To do that she needs to be seen as a country that cares about human rights, the environment etc. Not because it may impact on her markets in Australia but because it may impact on her markets (and political prestige) in the US and Europe etc. So notwithstanding that we may be in little Australia our voice together with the voice of the rest of the world will have an impact that the Chinese will respond to.

[citivolus (Ric)]

It should also be brought up, where are these Chinese factories getting the raw goods which they are refining, and from which the pollutants are emanating? Hmm. Australia does have some leverage in that regard.

[fringe_dweller]

Originally Posted by multiweb

If Australia sunk into the sea they wouldn't even notice it.

Originally Posted by Louwai

As soon as they hear I'm from Australia they are not interested.

their comment -
"Australia has a small population, not a big enough market. We are not interested in your business".

oh contrare! as citivolous and others alludes too, i know you are referring to trade, but I think they would miss our resources something shocking! ermm large chunk of worlds easily recoverable yellowcake for starters! they've been trying to buy them up at alarming rate