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Old 20-10-2009, 06:43 PM
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White Rabbit
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Has anyone used Maxims Maxpoint?

http://www.cyanogen.com/point_buy.php

Hi Guys.

has anyone ever used this software and is is any good? Are there any alternatives out there?

Thanks
Sandy
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  #2  
Old 21-10-2009, 12:26 AM
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Bassnut (Fred)
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I havent used maxpoint, but ive done the same thing with Tpoint and AAG Tpointmapper (which automates a maping run, free http://www.aagware.eu/software.htm). You need CCDsoft or DLmaxim and Sky too. Tpoint is also used for plate solving in other apps, so its worth having generally, but if all you want to do is a point map, and maxpoint does the job on its own, then thats a good deal. I did it with Tpoint cause I had all the apps required for other stuff anyway, how you do it depends on what you have already and how far you want to go with calibration/automation.

On viewing the gear in your signature, I guess your thinking of mapping the HEQ5 (or the ETX?), I really think that might not work too well, the mount pointing would have to be somewhat more accurate than they can do. Try and get some feedback from others who have tried it on those mounts before you spend money and truckloads of grief attempting this.
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Old 21-10-2009, 09:08 AM
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Thanks Fred.

Yeah, it would be the HEQ5 that I would be using. I figured I'd ask around first before jump in, thanks for your comments.

Sandy
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  #4  
Old 21-10-2009, 11:59 AM
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g__day (Matthew)
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Once I have a reliable 3 point calibration, then on a 80 point sky model in MaxPoint it tells me it can point my Atlux within about 55 arc seconds of the target (versus 3 arc minutes raw).

The alignment error it tells me is about 1 arc minute West and 5 arc seconds low of the SCP. It gives me measures of flexure, cone error (no mount leveling errors) and misalignment between the OTA's light path and the mount's axes in the 5 - 15 arc seconds generally.

So for my mount I find MaxPoint improves pointing on a well aligned, rigid optical platform, on a permanent pier threefold.

Let's say you get the same improvement - what is the current quality of your pointing ability all over the sky? Do you have any feel with what you are starting with?

Tpoint seems the heavier duty, more capable software (at double the price) - but I'd be interested to hear Fred's views on how capably MaxPoint vs Tpoint can improve all over sky pointing on his gear!
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Old 21-10-2009, 12:42 PM
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I have no idea of what my current errors run at, I would imagine, given that all the gear I use is cheap (relativly speaking of course) some would say crap, they would be fairly substatial.. Hey it's a fact, but I'm cool with that.

What I find a pain in butt is when I slew to something it will be in the FOV but not centred. I always have to take an image then recentre, take another image and so on and so on. It all takes to much time and I only have a few hours at night most nights.
It's especially a pain when you go past the meridian and I have to flip the mount. ATM when I go past the meridian, I select another target because of the huge deal of framing the picture the same way it was.

I was looking at Tpoing and it's only about $50 more...

Thanks for the info.
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  #6  
Old 21-10-2009, 01:39 PM
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Bassnut (Fred)
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I havent tried Maxpoint. I didnt attempt this on the G11, but on the PME its fine. I havent measured the result, but slewed to stars end up smack in the middle, always, everywhere, with a 100 or so mapped points. Focal length makes a big difference to how sucessful points are plate solved. At 1500mm, 100%, 2250mm, 70% (I found). At long FLs the catalog used gets more important apparently, I use GSC1.1, but others swear by other ones. Exposures get longer to find more dim stars if there arnt many in a narrow FOV.

A really nice bonus is the polar align report at the end of a run. With 40 points at 1 sec exposures (in auto) polar align is actually faster and more accurate than drift align !. I got polar align within single digit arcseconds fairly quickly.

The important thing is the repeatability of mount pointing rather than accuracy, maping is less usefull if the mount doesnt point in the same place each time, even if its way out (thats what the maping models). Maping doesnt improve repeatability.

Having said that, the ultimate, is software that plate solves after every slew, reslews to the correct spot and then plate solves again to check. I think some apps actually continously correct and improve the map during normal use.

Im doing all this because I want to slew to an object, compose/pick a guide star for the OAGer in The Sky and rotate to it automatically with the FOV indicator, so I dont have to search for a star. This requires high accuracy.

Tpoint needs other software, so factor that cost in. All these apps have 1-2 month free tryouts BTW, so you can see if it works 1st.
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  #7  
Old 22-10-2009, 12:07 AM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post

Hi Guys.

Are there any alternatives out there?

Thanks
Sandy
Hi Sandy,

From a purely technical perspective, TPOINT is a far more capable package.
For example, TPOINT provides for a richer set of error terms including many important
ones that MaxPoint lacks that are nevertheless commonly salient on many
amateur mounts.

TPOINT's highly flexible graphing capability is also valuable at identifying
often subtle phenomena that otherwise would be buried in the noise.

TPOINT has a prestigious pedigree. It's developer, Patrick Wallace, is the
world's leading authority on telescope pointing - no if's but's or maybe's - and
was originally developed at the Anglo Australian Observatory for use on the 3.8m AAT.
It is the reason why that telescope is still possibly the world's best pointing
telescope. It has been analyzed so throughly and in fact you can discover a few
obscure error terms in TPAS that are just applicable to the AAT.

Since then, TPOINT is the pointing analysis tool of choice on all the world's
professional telescopes, including the Gemini's, Kecks and VLT. Patrick Wallace
is the often employed as a consultant to observatories such as these to
assist with their pointing.

It is a serious tool, particularly in the hands of someone versed in its use.

TPOINT can be used standalone without a copy of TheSky but TheSky makes
the data gathering process all the easier and in particular when combined with
an automapper.

I am familiar with both packages and would recommend TPOINT in a heartbeat.

By the way, Argo Navis's TPAS borrows the nomenclature from TPOINT for the
names of error terms and both TPOINT and TPAS will give nearly identical results
when the same error terms are used - as they should.

Best regards

Gary
Mt Kuring-Gai
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  #8  
Old 23-10-2009, 09:16 AM
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do you think I would get any benifit from it with my HEQ5 pro mount. I intend on upgrading at some point (arnt we all?) so it may be worth bying it now whilst the AU is flying high even if I dont use now.

Thanks for the help guys.
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  #9  
Old 23-10-2009, 09:59 AM
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White Rabbit
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Gary,

Any idea of how much the stand alone windows vesion of Tpoint is, it doesnt mention it on their site. The sky 6 version is $250 us but I dont want to have to by the sky just to operate Tpoint.

Looks like a great piece of kit though, if it's suitable for my mount.

Thanks
Again

P.s I never did get my argo navis encoder slippage sorted out. I kept meaning to send the encoder back into you as you suggested but just never got around to it. One of these days I'll get my act together.
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  #10  
Old 23-10-2009, 08:26 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post
do you think I would get any benifit from it with my HEQ5 pro mount. I intend on upgrading at some point (arnt we all?) so it may be worth bying it now whilst the AU is flying high even if I dont use now.

Thanks for the help guys.
Hi Sandy,

In a previous post you wrote -

Quote:
What I find a pain in butt is when I slew to something it will be in the FOV but not centred. I always have to take an image then recentre, take another image and so on and so on. It all takes to much time and I only have a few hours at night most nights.
It's especially a pain when you go past the meridian and I have to flip the mount. ATM when I go past the meridian, I select another target because of the huge deal of framing the picture the same way it was.
Based on this description, it is likely you probably have Dec to optical axis
non-perpendicularity, what is known as Collimation in Hour Angle or CH for short.

It can come about for a variety of reasons, such as an OTA not being "square"
on a dovetail or "square" in a set of rings, or in turn the dovetail or rings not being
"square" to the head of the mount. It can also occur if the OTA is not collimated
or if you are using a camera in an eyepiece holder, if the camera's optical axis
is not collimated with respect the light exit path from the eyepiece holder.
For example, if the camera is heavy and held in a holder by a thumbscrew,
it might shift under the weight of gravity.

If the error is random, such as a mirror flop in an SCT or a sudden shift in a
camera with respect the eyepiece holder or if the scope is now and then
rotated in a set of rings, it can be more difficult to cure and certainly pointing
analysis in that case won't be able to compensate for it, but it would tell
you that in fact you have a random error.

If the error is of a systematic nature, it lends itself perfectly to pointing analysis
and correction.

Apart from CH, there are other phenomena that could give rise to it, such as
Dec to RA non-perpendicularity, or NP for short, but since you mention it is a
commercial GEM, NP is a less likely candidate than CH. With either CH or NP,
as you flip the mount, the direction of the error will reverse. CH is constant for
for all values of Dec whereas NP will be at a minimum at Dec=0 on the scope
and a max value at the pole of the scope.

There will undoubtedly several other sources of error, though probably not
as pronounced as your likely CH term, that TPOINT would uncover and
mop up for you. As a bonus, it will tell you your polar misalignment as well.

Whether it is worthwhile for you, that will have to be for you to decide, depending
upon how serious a problem it is for you.

TPOINT can be purchased 'standalone' from Software Bisque -
http://www.bisque.com/sc/shops/store...t-win-box.aspx
though they assume nearly all users will be using it in conjunction with
TheSky.

Keep in mind that if you are using it standalone, you will
need some way to log the sampled stars cataloged RA/Dec, where your
scope "thinks" it is pointing in RA/Dec and the current sidereal time.
These are the tasks that using TPOINT in conjunction with TheSky will
automate for you, otherwise you will have to script something yourself.

Good luck!

Best Regards

Gary
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  #11  
Old 23-10-2009, 08:33 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by White Rabbit View Post
Gary,

Any idea of how much the stand alone windows vesion of Tpoint is, it doesnt mention it on their site. The sky 6 version is $250 us but I dont want to have to by the sky just to operate Tpoint.
See previous post for the link on pricing.

Quote:
Looks like a great piece of kit though, if it's suitable for my mount.
It is a powerful tool. Definitely would suit your current equatorial mount.
It comes with a User Manual and many users do fine with what is the manual
and a bit of experimentation. Experienced practitioners looking over your shoulder
can probably take you to another plane if you want to squeeze as much error
out as you can.

Quote:
P.s I never did get my argo navis encoder slippage sorted out. I kept meaning to send the encoder back into you as you suggested but just never got around to it. One of these days I'll get my act together.
Don't forget to drop me a line and send it for us to look at!

Best Regards

Gary
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  #12  
Old 23-10-2009, 08:59 PM
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RobF (Rob)
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Hi Sandy
I've got a HEQ5Pro too, and rarely manage to get a beautiful 3 point alignment done. I learnt early on its easier to load up a saved cal and sync it for the part of the sky I'm imaging in. If the object isn't dead-centre, its very rare I can't tweak it in one jump through the viewfinder of my DSLR (you may be talking about your DSI though I suspect).

Anyway, most of us with a HEQ didn't buy it for its pointing ability, but the price.
With price in mind, why not invest a few hours getting Elbrus going - its freeware? It took me a while to get my head around it properly, but its quite capable of correcting your pointing without having to sync on a known star with each slew to a new part of the sky. Once you've plate solved, you just tell it to sync with your ascom compatible planetarium software (or let it do it automatically). Be aware - big download to get the database.

http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ghlight=elbrus
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  #13  
Old 24-10-2009, 11:01 PM
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Bassnut (Fred)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
These are the tasks that using TPOINT in conjunction with TheSky will
automate for you, otherwise you will have to script something yourself.

Gary
This is an unfortunate hurdle , it can get quite expensive. Also Tpoint is tedious to use manualy, but the maping automation software is free.
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  #14  
Old 26-10-2009, 09:39 AM
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White Rabbit
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thanks for all the advice guys, food for thought.

I emailed the author of Tpoint for a price as the software price is aperture dependant. Here is what he had to say.

"Your best bet for controlling an HEQ6 Pro is TheSky+TPoint. The
minimum license cost for the standalone "pro" TPOINT is 350 GBP,
which I assume is way above what the Bisque package costs.
Moreover, it's not just the pointing analysis part that you need.
You have to run pointing tests and gather the data in the
appropriate way, and then control the mount with the correction
terms in place. Only TheSky includes these components.

If you decide to go this way, by all means send me a pointing
run to analyze: I'll be interested to see what accuracy the
Skywatcher mount can deliver."
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