Is This Fair?

[Astrobserver99 (Rob)]

I purchased "The Handbook of Astronomical Image Processing " from Willmann Bell in the USA. After purchasing, I became aware from other users that the software would be unsuitable. So I requested a refund from Willmann Bell. They said the package had already been shipped but I could return it for a refund. After receiving the book and software, I thought I would install the software on my PC to see if it would be OK. I found the software unsuitable for a number of reasons. I then returned the software the following day. Later, I received an insulting email from the president of Willmann Bell accusing me of fraud and refusing to give a refund because I opened the package and installed the software. He also sent a cc of his email to the authors of the book and software. In hindsight, I should not have opened the package.

I am astounded he thought the incident so important that he wanted to hurt me professionally and personally!

[CoombellKid]

Yup! IMO you should of just shipped it back unopened. Otherwise mate...
well ummm errr... it does look pretty dodgy. Especially as you requested
a refund as it was being shipped or in the process of being shipped.

What would you think the reply would be???? sorry if that sounds tough!

Cheers,CS

[Baddad (Marty)]

Hi All,

I have very strong thoughts of this kind of purchases.

The product does not perform as advertised. If proof can be shown that the software is deleted from the computer, the customer has a right to a full refund.

Open to argument.

Cheers Marty.

[leon]

Well Rob I have to say I do agree with Rob C on this one, I also have a copy of this book and to found it quite useless.

Leon

[sjastro]

Are you referring to the AIP4WIN software?

Steven

[[1ponders] (Paul)]

Aip4win? Works a treat for me in the areas I bought it for. I have also found the book invaluable. Particularly the first half.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Well, my well understood views on the legal side of this (IANAL) is that you have every right to install the software. And if it isn't to your liking, then you have every legal right to uninstall it and ask for a refund.

The software industry is a joke - software manufacturers can do whatever they want, and presume no responsibility for their often poorly written products. Imagine if cars were sold "as is" with no enforced safety standards, or minimum standards of operation. Governments need to tighten up on software manufacturers and make EULAs illegal imho.

Rob (OP) - you are quite entitled to a refund, although as they are in the US, and you're in Australia, they can give you the finger cos they know it's not financially worth it for you to initiate legal action against them.

Now - onto the real beef. Firstly, the president of Willmann Bell has undoubtedly broken privacy laws for starters (by releasing your name to the authors of the software without your consent). Secondly, I believe that you have a reasonable case for defamation of character. If it was me, I know how I'd be drafting my reply.

Dave

[PCH (Paul)]

Microsoft products used to say in the micro-print on the back of the box, that if you weren't happy with the way the software performed - clearly after you'd installed and tried it - you were welcome to remove it from your pc and take it back to the supplier for a full refund.

Whether this would have actually worked I can't say, as I never did it. But on the strength of the wording on the box I would have been happy to go back and argue as loudly as necessary to secure a refund.

Of course it becomes a whole level harder when you've purchased from across the pond. Basically they can just tell you to bu--er off. And, let's face it, who would bother taking it to the next (expensive) step

But with regard to this OP's issue, I would have thought it more prudent to NOT install it before returning it. The more so since he realised it's probable unsuitability before it even arrived. If I'd wanted to check out the s/w, I would have sent an email to check if I could return it, after opening it, if it didn't work to my satisfaction, prior to doing it.

Cheers

[marki]

When I bought my copy (new) and installed and registered the program I also got a very nasty email from the said gent (he accused me of being a thief ). In my reply I did suggest he go forth and multiply several times as well as seek help for chronic masturbation . The second email I received from him was a little more civil and I was only too happy to answer his questions. Turned out someone from the shop I bought it from had not only loaded the software on their computer but also registered it. The brand new book was then sold on to me . I ended up getting a new serial number but am not sure what action they took against the shop. I did end up with an apology and gave one in return. They really should find out what has happened before going for the throat.

Mark

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by PCH

But with regard to this OP's issue, I would have thought it more prudent to NOT install it before returning it. The more so since he realised it's probable unsuitability before it even arrived. If I'd wanted to check out the s/w, I would have sent an email to check if I could return it, after opening it, if it didn't work to my satisfaction, prior to doing it.

Cheers

Well, from a legal perspective, the OP has every legal right to install the software - otherwise, how is he really able to determine if it's suitable or not?

Imagine buying a car without being allowed to test drive it. Imagine where you can't test drive a car, but must buy it, as is, without testing it. And then, post sale, if it's not to your liking, you can't return it. Software is absolutely no different in principle.

The OPs story, and Mark's story have completely turned me off ever buying this book (I was considering it down the track).

Dave

[barx1963 (Malcolm)]

Just out of curiosity, as I have considered buying this product, in what way was it unsuitable?

[marki]

Originally Posted by barx1963

Just out of curiosity, as I have considered buying this product, in what way was it unsuitable?

. Works well enough for me.

Mark

[Peter Ward]

Originally Posted by Baddad

.....
The product does not perform as advertised. If proof can be shown that the software is deleted from the computer, the customer has a right to a full refund......

This is only true if you don't get out of Kindergarten Oz very often.

Australian consumer laws are very stongly biased toward the consumer.

This is not the case in most other countries, eg the USA.

Breaking a software seal there is a big no-no. You break it, you bought it.

Sure you can save a buck by using the net...but don't expect any ACCC sympathy when things don't work as expected.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Yes, but Peter, the product was purchased in Australia. The computer used to purchase the item was in Australia, as was the person. Therefore, the seller has the rights of an Australian consumer. Many software items are not available in Australia, and are only available off the Internet - consumers usually have no other choice in the matter.

I don't believe that Australia's consumer laws are biased towards the consumer. I believe the consumer laws in the US and other countries are very weak, far weaker than they should be.

And for that matter, what I've seen of the US legal system, it's a complete farce (SCO vs IBM, SCO vs Redhat, SCO vs Novell as an example). This is very typical of the US legal system from everything that I've seen. Whilst the Australian judicial system isn't great, it's a whole site better than that in the US imho.

Dave

edit: there are 2 sides to this coin - if the seller of the product isn't prepared to honour the consumer laws for the country of the person purchasing said item, then maybe they shouldn't sell to that person? Of course, companies like to make a profit, but hate to actually provide any service to their customer in many instances (not always, I realise).

[marki]

Originally Posted by Peter Ward

Sure you can save a buck by using the net...but don't expect any ACCC sympathy when things don't work as expected.

Peter, I bought my copy from an oz telescope shop.

Mark

[Dennis]

Sorry to hear of your bad experience, it must have come as quite a shock when you received the e-mail from the supplier. I recall that on most boxed software that I purchase from bricks and mortar shops in Australia, there is usually a disclaimer sticker on the sealed cellophane wrapper that reads something like:

“If this product is unsuitable, you can return it for a full refund but if the seal has been broken, no refund is possible”

However, the response from the supplier seems quite uncalled for and very, very unprofessional indeed. On a personal note, I have enjoyed reading the book and find some of the functionality of the software very useful.

Cheers

Dennis

[Terry B]

This is not very satisfactory.
I use AIP4WIN extensively and find it very useful for what I need.
I think that if you had decided that the book and software were going to be unsuitable before you even received it then it was not very fair to go and open the packaging and install it.
It will be difficult to resell the package since you have opened it. Do you expect the vendor to take loss because you changed your mind?
There is no suggestion that the book and software was not what it was advertised as. It is a book about image processing and the software is an image software processing ap with a very good photometry module. If it was faulty then that is a different problem. The software does as it is described
This is no different to me buying a shirt, wearing it once and deciding that it doesn't suit me and returning it. It's slightly soiled but thats not my problem. Don't worry about the next person that will wear the shirt.

Just my view.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Originally Posted by Dennis

I recall that on most boxed software that I purchase from bricks and mortar shops in Australia, there is usually a disclaimer sticker on the sealed cellophane wrapper that reads something like:

“If this product is unsuitable, you can return it for a full refund but if the seal has been broken, no refund is possible”

Cheers

Dennis

And that is actually illegal under the Trade Practices Act 1974. What they say, and what is legal, are quite often 2 different things. Very different things. Retailers that try this route should be extremely heavily fined to stop them from doing so.

Dave

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Terry - I respectfully disagree. The purchaser has the right to open and try the software and if it does not suit their needs, then return it. With software, it is impossible to tell if it's useful to an end user unless you install it.

Again, we come back to my initial conclusion - software companies are a law unto themselves. The sooner the noose is tightened around their necks, the better I'll sleep.

Dave

Originally Posted by Terry B

This is not very satisfactory.
I use AIP4WIN extensively and find it very useful for what I need.
I think that if you had decided that the book and software were going to be unsuitable before you even received it then it was not very fair to go and open the packaging and install it.
It will be difficult to resell the package since you have opened it. Do you expect the vendor to take loss because you changed your mind?
There is no suggestion that the book and software was not what it was advertised as. It is a book about image processing and the software is an image software processing ap with a very good photometry module. If it was faulty then that is a different problem. The software does as it is described
This is no different to me buying a shirt, wearing it once and deciding that it doesn't suit me and returning it. It's slightly soiled but thats not my problem. Don't worry about the next person that will wear the shirt.

Just my view.

[Terry B]

Originally Posted by dpastern

And that is actually illegal under the Trade Practices Act 1974. What they say, and what is legal, are quite often 2 different things. Very different things. Retailers that try this route should be extremely heavily fined to stop them from doing so.

Dave

Is the key word "unsuitable" rather than non functional or defective etc?
Just because you find after buying something that it isn't quite what you want why does the seller have to accept it back and in what time frame?
I buy a car, take it home and find it doesn't fit in my garage should the seller be obliged to take it back and give me a full refund?
It isn't brand new now and can't be resold as brand new?