EQ6Pro vs GM8 vs G11

[koputai (Jason)]

It's almost time to buy a better mount (to get into astrophotography)
and I'm weighing up the contenders.
Lots of people around here seem to get awesome results from the EQ6
Pro, yet a lot of folks say it's a beginners mount, and you have to get a
Losmandy.
In Ron Wodaski's book, he says the Losmandy GM8 is useless, and even
the G11 is a mediocre performer. I'd say his book was written before the
EQ6Pro came out, so I don't know what he'd say about that mount.

As far as the load it needs to carry:
Guide camera wise, I'm thinking of running a 60mm or 80mm refractor as
a guidescope with an SBIG ST-5C guider as I already have these. For the
imaging scope I'll use my existing 8 inch Newt for a while, then go to
either a VC200L or a 130mm-ish refractor. Camera, possibly a DSI III Pro
initially, then something like a QHY-8 or similar.

I'm pretty sure any of the above mounts would carry this load quite well,
so is it worth going with a Losmandy over the EQ6?

Cheers,
Jason.

[Hans Tucker (Hans)]

The GM8 is out of it's weight class if you are pitting it up against the EQ6 & G11 because the latter two have a similar weight bearing capacity where as the GM8 is half that.

Also I have to strongly disagree with Ron Wodaski's claim that the G11 is a mediocre performer. I owned a G11 and it is an excellent entry level medium sized mount for astrophotography but it is considerably more expensive than the EQ6 pro. I also owned a HEQ5 mount which is the baby brother to the EQ6 and these mounts have come a long way since they first were introduced and as you have already noted many people here on this site have been successful at imaging with the EQ6.

So my recommendation is to go with the best mount which would be best suited to carrying your equipment weight and your budget.

Goodluck with what ever you choose.

[mick pinner]

it's obvious to anyone that has owned a G11 that Wodaski has no idea.
having owned an EQ6 AND G11 seriously there is no comparison IMO, the G11 is a far superior mount in every way. people with EQ6's may disagree but you don't have such a price difference for nothing.

[AlexN]

back in the OLD days, Losmandy mounts had some issues with machining tolerances, however these days, they are superior to anything synta releases in a similar weight class...

A GM-8 will destroy a HEQ5 for accuracy, PE etc, and a G11 will do the same to an EQ6 given similar load percentages...

Also, despite the EQ6 being rated to carry 24kgs, I'd like to see you accurately guide and attempt photography with 24kgs on one.. I've tried. I failed. a G11 will carry 24kgs with no issues what so ever..

No comparison. If you can afford the Losmandy mount in the weight class you're looking at, then get it....

FWIW, Gemini goto can be a pain from my minimal experience with it.. a lot of users opting to go with the non-goto digital drive mount with encoders and an Argo-Navis. cost is a little less overall than buying a go-to mount too..

Alex.

[marki]

Why not go that little bit further and get a AP Mach1 GTO. Similar capacity to the others, max PE of +/- 3.5 arc sec or less and only a couple grand (US) dearer then the G11.

Mark

[AlexN]

I dunno Mark.. How long do you want to wait for your mount? If you want a mount now, the losmandy is a better option, if you're willing to wait 4~7 years, sure, order the AP Mach1 GTO.. Far superior mount to all the rest mentioned in this thread.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

It ain't a 4-7 year wait for an AP. Prolly closer to 18 months from what I'm seeing out of cloudy skies forums.

Dave

[marki]

Alex, if you go the AP site the 900GTO is available for oct/nov 2009 delivery at $8450 US. Not sure about the Mach 1 though.

Mark

[Hans Tucker (Hans)]

Originally Posted by marki

Why not go that little bit further and get a AP Mach1 GTO. Similar capacity to the others, max PE of +/- 3.5 arc sec or less and only a couple grand (US) dearer then the G11.

Mark

Personally, I would love to downgrade from my Takahashi NJP to an AP Mach 1 but have you ever tried to sell an NJP on the used market in Australia.

Anyway on the subject of the AP Mach 1 you also have to factor in a tripod and counter-weights when purchasing this mount because the $5800+ US price does not include these items where as if a person goes the G11 route they get the lot.

P.S. Sorry I didn't mean to imply that the EQ6 was equal or superior to the G11 but if someone is working on a tight budget the EQ6 may be a good mount to start with.

[renormalised (Carl)]

Sorry I didn't mean to imply that the EQ6 was equal or superior to the G11 but if someone is working on a tight budget the EQ6 may be a good mount to start with.

Precisely. Not too many people can go and plunk down uber bucks on a G11 when they can get by purchasing an EQ6 without breaking the bank.

[Alchemy (Clive)]

Originally Posted by koputai

It's almost time to buy a better mount (to get into astrophotography)
and I'm weighing up the contenders.
imaging scope I'll use my existing 8 inch Newt for a while, then go to
either a VC200L or a 130mm-ish refractor. Camera, possibly a DSI III Pro
initially, then something like a QHY-8 or similar.

I'm pretty sure any of the above mounts would carry this load quite well,
so is it worth going with a Losmandy over the EQ6?

Cheers,
Jason.

i use exactly what you have in mind, ( 132mm refractor, 80mm guidescope plus qhy8) i chose the G11 and still would, the adage you get what you pay for rings true generally.

ron wodowski is pretty much commenting on the very top end for mounts, note the book is a few years old now and autoguiding is very sophisticated, i might agree with him if you are shooting at huge F/L then by all means get a paramount or similar, but at around 1000mm i dont think that is a concern.

[AlexN]

Originally Posted by dpastern

It ain't a 4-7 year wait for an AP. Prolly closer to 18 months from what I'm seeing out of cloudy skies forums.

Dave

I dont know about that.. I'm on the waiting list for one.. have been for at least 9 months now.. I got an email when i got on the list saying that the list was currently 6 years long for the Mach1 GTO... And apparently a 9 year wait for my AP130 EDF..

In any case, I will agree with Hans, You can't beat an EQ6 for value... however this does not mean its better than the G11.. Take for example, Fred (Bassnut) uses his G11 to image with a 3000mm focal length, 12" SCT + guiding gear + imaging gear.. The mount is built like a tank... You do indeed get what you pay for.

[beren]

Rod Wodaski's book is a good one......not sure if I interpret the author as describing the G11 as mediocre but here's the passage.....

"The Losmandy G11 has been the entry level mount of choice for imagers on a budget for some years. The GM-8 is not stiff enough to be a good imaging mount, but some folks have a good success by putting the G11 tripod and saddle on the GM-8. if your are going to take that approach, you might as well just go all the way and get the heavier G11 head, too. The price difference between the GM-8 and the G11 is not large.
The G11 has larger periodic error than most of the other mounts mentioned here, but you can usually guide out the error satisfactorily if the focal length of your imaging scope is under 2000mm. There is some variability in the periodic and random errors in tracking from mount to mount, and some sites have sprung up with suggestions on how to improve tracking accuracy.
Unguided exposures with the G11 are often problematic due to tracking errors. I recommend using a guider with the G11.
The G11 is a good choice if your on a tight budget, but expect to put in some time tuning the mount and learning about its behaviour under load. The G11 is often spoken of as being capable of carrying 60 pound loads, for imaging, somewhere around 30-35 is more realistic.
Now available in a goto version called gemini, the G11 is excellent for visual observing, and the servo motors of the gemimi may be better for imaging then the stepper motors used in the non goto version."

Quoted from Page 133 The New CCD Astronomy, Rod Wodaski

The other mounts mentioned are from Astro-Physics, Takahashi, Software Bisque, Mountain Instruments, William Yang

If astrophotography is what you want to do the G11 is the minimum I would look at but I have seen a heap of good work from people using EQ-6's.

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Maybe the waits are longer for the mach 1...a few more grand gets the AP900 which is a much better mount imho. Hell, for US $8450, that's a steal, especially since our Aussie dollar is not the best. I'd love an AP900, but I can't really justify it since I'm not even using my current mount to its best potential yet.

Dave

[AlexN]

Yea a few more grand. $5800 for the AP Mach1 head (no tripod/weights/saddle plate etc) all up around $6500~6900 USD, or closer to $10500 USD for the AP900 all kitted out.. at 10500 USD you may as well go 13700 for a AP1200 and be done with it! lol. You have to draw the line somewhere.. The Mach1 will do just fine I think... Yes the wait is painful... I'd rather wait it out than buy on the used market though..

[Hagar (Doug)]

The choice of mount is probably the most important choice you will make when talking Astrophotograhy. I have owned an EQ6 pro and was lucky to get one which worked mechanically perfect straight out of the box. Others have not been so lucky and have had to go down various lines to make the mount and it's control much better. It is a big heavy mount and served me very well.

I now own a G11 and find it to be an even better mount than I had expected. It is again a very heavy mount to carry around but would consider it the minimum for imaging with the likes of an 8" SCT or VC200L along with a guide scope and camera. At focal lengths of 1800mm in the case of the VC200L the mount has to be accurate and stable and this mount and tripod fit this requirement well.
There has been some talk about the Gemini control system being a pain but I can assure you these comments come from those that have not used one very much. With a little use the control system is extremely accurate and well thought out.
My recommendation would be go for the G11 with Gemini control. It is way more stable than the EQ6, has a better weight carrying capacity than the GM8 and EQ6, is extremely well made and quite well priced and can be sourced without having to wait a year or two to get one.

[Tandum (Robin)]

I believe there are after market worm gears available for the G11 which move it's accuracy into the super mount bracket.

http://www.astromart.com/articles/ar...article_id=663

[marki]

Originally Posted by AlexN

I dont know about that.. I'm on the waiting list for one.. have been for at least 9 months now.. I got an email when i got on the list saying that the list was currently 6 years long for the Mach1 GTO... .

So forget the Mach 1 and get the 900GTO. You can have it by november and there is not that much of a price difference (~ 6 vs 8.5). Might seem like a lot but will last you a lifetime. I have seen a couple of 130's come up for sale second hand of late but they usually don't last more then 1/2 hour. You would have to be pretty quick to get one.

Mark

[g__day (Matthew)]

I think Ron loves his super mounts. Alot of folk seem to use the EQ6 or G11 with great success here so my thoughts would be you have to know your boundaries. If you think you will get into long duration, long focal length astrophotography - the G11 will have longer legs and better precision to make it a reality.

After 2.5 years of tuning, set up and gaining experience - I can now do hour long shots at 2.3 metre focal length and get round stars (guided tracking seems around +/- 1-2 arc seconds star movement per any 30 seconds - which could be atomspheric, differential flex, mirror shift, polar misalignment, PE etc).

The key point I make is its the long focal length, shifting mirrors, heavy gear (3 OTAs plus focusers, camera, guiders, heavy Losmandy bars etc) that mean the mount has to be absolutely up to it else you are in for alot of pain (and I' argue my Atlux has slightly higher spec's than a G11).

It takes time to master difficult guiding - you absolutely have to nail and try your hardest to eliminate all sources of error (loose or unbalanced gear that shifts only in the microns, CCDs that aren't sensitive enough to guide off, excessive backlash in your DEC). The better quality and capability mount you start with - the fewer sources of error you have to fix.

Serious amateur astrophotographers have managed great results working with the G11 + Gemini combination - there must be a reason why!

Matt

[gregbradley]

I have seen both AP900 and Mach 1 GTO's for sale on Astromart recently and more than once. The US astronomers generally speaking are hurting more than the Aussies so there are deals out there. The Aussie dollar is around the US83 cent mark which is pretty high considering for many years it was below 75 cents.

Have you also considered a Tak EM200? Or perhaps a 2nd hand NJP which will handle up to a 12.5 inch RCOS and a TEC180mm refractor.

Tak is very user firendly and simple to use. Losmandy uses Gemini system which whilst it has a lot of features I found it very time consuming and slow to align and synchronise. My NJP synchs pretty accurately after only 1 star. Others may have other experiences but when I used Gemini it was still so so on Go-Tos after 10 synchs. Perhaps my polar alignment sucked at the time.

Tak is way to go in my opinion.

AP900 and Tak Em400 (or NJP) are similar quality from a review of someone who had both and from what I have seen in images.

G11 is good value but tracking errors and eggy stars are more likely at longer focal length. Tak has lower PE to start with but has no PEC and relies on its low PE.

I am sure you could get a 2nd hand EM200 or very close to it for the price of a G11.

Also with Tak and AP sure the initial cost is higher but you get most of your moeny back when you resell.

Remember the Forengi laws (Deep Space Nine) resale is at the end of the cycle of purchase!!

Greg.