Ive just been thinking about photos of the week, all of them are just that! exceptional but what about the beginners? fellas whith less than takahashi scopes and SBIG ccd cams and the top of the range everythings.
Something that might have a catagory aka, $ spent, or DSLR, or even Location, as somebody who lives in the city isn't going to have even a tiny little bit of a chance to top it with the big boys unless your going narrow band which puts you in the $$$ catagory again.
I think it would be great to do something like this and do a poll during the week for the previous where people submit a likely contender (nomination style) then do a proper poll and who ever wins goes up for the week.
thats my thoughts to make the astro photography community more "active", as people do great work with limited budgets.!
Brendon, My image of the week a little while ago was a widefield taken with a 2nd hand Canon 20d using an el cheapo nifty 50 lens. The camera was mounted on top of my sky watcher ed 80 which was mounted on the mini tower.
For Astrophotography, I'd call that a budget set up.
I don't agree that you need the flash gear to get the photo of the week. Sure there are a lot of guys here who have all the gear and they take lots of excellent photos, but that's not the reason the photos are picked I'm sure.
One of my photos made POW because is was significantly different to what others were doing. It was taken with a camera on a basic tripod.
I imagine Mike (or whoever picks the POW) looks for something that is astro related that catches his eye - and so will catch the eye of others. Simple as that.
It won't matter who you are, or what camera you use, if you had a reasonable shot of a rare astro event and no one had one better... it'd be a great candidate for POW!
Yeah, doesn't matter what equipment you take it with.
For example, look at the fantastic work Barb and David are putting out and they're using very modest equipment.
It's about using your equipment and pushing it as far as it can go. If you have an entry level DSLR and take 10 x 1 minute exposures and expect to produce a masterpiece that's going to end up in Picture of the Week, it's just not going to happen. Take the same camera, and take 20+ x 5 minute exposures, and you'll be surprised at what you'll create.
I don't think it needs to be a democratic process.
Mike, or whomever selects the POW should be able to pick anything they want? Its not a competition after all with scrutiny of the judging process required to be tabled, accounted and visible to all.
Any time I post a pic of something, to me at least, its my own POW and if anyone says good work, then I am happy.
My opinion is to leave it as it is. If it actually is only Mike who selects it, then surely he is entitled to give it to any picture he wants, regardless of the bankroll behind the indivual(s) involved in taking it.
Your dead right there, thats where the "experience factor" comes in give david mallin a el cheapo 20d on with a 80ed for 1 week and see what comes back.
all im saying is people that have the experience are already 90% of the way there. Pushing equipment is grand, but think back a little bit to when you where starting out? it is very daunting and extremely hard. the only reason why i thought ide start the topic is i was recently looking though the photos i had taken with the Meade LX200R 12" and SBIG st402-me. some serious gear! but all i could manage was tiny fuzzy black and white images, now 6 months of playing around and i have been published in a magazine that gets distributed in Aus and Nz. all i have is the 10" my 16 dollar guide scope (DSE special) a canon 40d (borrowed from curtin un modded) to which i have learnt alot of it myself or with other like minded guys that are in the same boat!
All i would like to do is have a section for beginners with modest equipment and little experience to have a shot at POW as it can really stimulate people to strive for the "prize" of POW beginners section.
Ive added in a picture of one of the shots i was looking though that inspired and im sure you can agree that 6 months of exp is un measureable, imagine what 6 years will do!
and below was taken in early april this year. how can you measure? mind you with only 3x 15 min photos if only i knew then what i know now ide of sat on that same image all night taking 15 min subs! oh what experience teaches us
Hi Brendan, I understand what you appear to be saying but find your logic somewhat flawed. I posted a thread some time back re the David Malin Awards, I was howled down by everyone and sundry for posting such a thread. I still maintain the improving beginner, at times seems to miss a lot of the accolades which the more experienced imager gets. It is dificult with one image to demonstrate the improvement in the quality of an imagers work and it is easy to pick a nicely captured and processed piece for presentation such as this but thats the way it stands. I would rather be a mug who can see improvement in each image I do than the worlds best just sitting still seeing no forward momentum. People get sick of perfection quickly and soon pay no attention.
The thing to remember is that awards of any kind must be earned in some way or another and are not given for the cost of the equipment used. They are for creating something quite outstanding and often unusual. The likes of Freds starless images. Who ever heard of a sky without stars but again it was unusual, at least to me.
I personally find that imaging is an expression of yourself and in most cases you continue to do it for yourself. The thing that is lacking on this and many forums is the ability or the want from those who know better to pass on some of the knowledge they have gained over the years. It is sad to say that most want to be the best or at least stay that one step ahead of each other.
I would love to see a forum where knowledge is passed as freely as general chit chat. We would all benifit from this but human nature prevents this from happening. Suffice to say that some nice comments and the odd nice comment from the more respected imagers may well be as good as it gets.
The imaging threads provide a section which allows yours, mine and everybody's work to be publicly displayed. Images of the week do exactly the same just highlight a specific piece of work, no more, no less, except for the fact that you don't recieve any feedback or assistance for these images.
Lets forget the trivial little concerns about who is getting accolades and turn this forum and treads into a real learning center that we all can benifit from.
Doug I'm with you on this one often images are posted with scant detail as to what equipment used, number of exposures etc and processing to acheive the final result.
I try and post as much detail as I can to encourage others to try and also to impart knowledge about the object imaged.
There's quite a few topics being discussed all at once here.
I'll start with the IOTW.
The IOTW image is chosen by me and me alone. I go through all the deep space and solar system threads each week and choose the image that stands out to me the most. I do take some other factors into consideration and I do try and spread it around so it's not the same "elite level" photographers getting chosen each week.
I try to choose an image that's been posted in the past week - sometimes that means there's an overwhelming choice, and at other times (especially during full moon week), the selection isn't as great.
I certainly don't choose an image based on the type of equipment that is used. I also don't factor in length of time as a member, number of posts. That makes no difference to me.
Don't forget the IOTW is to showcase the great work the astrophotographers on IIS do. So of course I choose an image that's going to look great on the IIS home page.
At times I'll choose something that's more unusual, or sometimes more topical/current, and at times I just choose a beautiful image that grabs me when I first see it.
The majority of "beautiful" images are usually deep space images so I also try and choose a solar system image every now and then to try and provide some balance.
I don't see any need to change my process of selecting the IOTW and to me, it's working well as it is. I just need to force myself to do it on the same day each way - sometimes time gets away from me and it can be longer than a week before choosing a new image.
Regarding some of the other topics, Brendan regarding beginners imaging, do you mean something like Cloudy Nights, where they have an "imaging competition" on a monthly basis and a poll where the public/members chooses the winner?
I've also been tempted from time to time to set up a "Beginning Imagers" sub-forum where people new to imaging can freely post their work for encouragement, suggestions for improvements etc, without feeling "out of their depth" in the normal Deep Space forum.
What do you think about that?
I'm up for any idea which will encourage newbie imagers to post their work, and get feedback/ideas on how to improve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug
The thing that is lacking on this and many forums is the ability or the want from those who know better to pass on some of the knowledge they have gained over the years. It is sad to say that most want to be the best or at least stay that one step ahead of each other.
Doug, I've found that most people are generally willing to pass on whatever knowledge they have learned. Most people have always learned from someone else so they're happy to help out others.
Maybe it's a case of the person posting the image to ASK for feedback and suggestions. Maybe it's a case of the person with the knowledge not feeling confident enough to be able to put their suggestions into words, or feeling that they themselves aren't knowledgeable enough to pass information on (when in all probability, they are).
With today's camera technologies and information being passed around so freely, someone with the right aptitude can go from being a total beginner to producing outstanding images in a very short time.
I've seen it time and time again right here on IceInSpace.
That sort of rapid improvement was very difficult to achieve 5-10 years ago because the information just wasn't so freely available to help them expedite their journey along the steep learning curve of imaging.
I hear what you're saying, but, I'd like to mention the likes of people like Jase (who in my opinion is one of the best imagers out there), who go out of their way to basically spell out, step-by-step what they do to produce such incredible images.
Regards,
Humayun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hagar
I would love to see a forum where knowledge is passed as freely as general chit chat. We would all benifit from this but human nature prevents this from happening. Suffice to say that some nice comments and the odd nice comment from the more respected imagers may well be as good as it gets.
The thing that is lacking on this and many forums is the ability or the want from those who know better to pass on some of the knowledge they have gained over the years. It is sad to say that most want to be the best or at least stay that one step ahead of each other.
I would love to see a forum where knowledge is passed as freely as general chit chat. We would all benifit from this but human nature prevents this from happening.
Ah yes, it can all be very secret squirrel can't it.
You get that in most hobbies.
It makes the learning curve that much harder. A simple, easily fixed problem can take literally months of trial and error to remedy.
On the other hand, there is nothing more annoying than a newbie who wants it all handed to them on a platter, with no effort on their own part.
I guess thats a ripper of a idea Mike a sub section aka Beginner photographers. I havn't seen the Cloudy nights monthly competition as IIS is my only website i frequent but being human we are all competitive and this will push budding astro photographers to get better and if they see something then they can go how do you do that? getting photo of the week would not be for me to get the "Accolades" as he is the best imager rant rant rant, its more a show of appriciation and noting work that is good enough. its like A and B grade, A grades are always the best of the best and B grades knows this but there is something about aiming to be good.
I guess for me i posted a few images over the past few months and had very little feedback hence i havn't bothered to post anymore of them, im learning and hell my images are less than good but i make do with what i have as i cant afford to get anything else.
To me there is a gap of knowledge if your an extreme bignner aka, you havn't taken a shot in anger yet there is a whole well of information and people to help but its that part where you get to being decent but not a semi pro that it falls down now if this step is just plain old experience then so be it ill get there but if theres something that i could do that will help then ill be in it faster than you can say boo.
And for me personally astronomy has been a very big part of my life now but with most of the clubs and events i have been to because im young (under 30) there has always been a Us and Them crowd hence why im looking to move groups now and at the risk of sounding like a A55 i do see this here to some degree aswell almost like buddie posting. ahh well this is my view i just want to see a whole group of people that work together to make everybody better to which why i post i give all the information that i know sometimes it might not be right but somebody will eventually steer me in the right direction. the idea is if there are 10 people on the same level all working and nutting things out you will do so quicker and everybody will be better as a concequence!
Maybe it's a case of the person posting the image to ASK for feedback and suggestions. Maybe it's a case of the person with the knowledge not feeling confident enough to be able to put their suggestions into words, or feeling that they themselves aren't knowledgeable enough to pass information on (when in all probability, they are).
That's true too Mike.
But having been there, in the beginning, it can be like pulling teeth to get some constructive criticism and guidance.
Maybe their afraid of offending if they tell someone their image isn't up to scratch?
In management i was always told if something isn't right don't just stamp your feet around saying its all wrong, stamp your feet say its wrong then tell what can be done to fix it... simple simon says!
In management i was always told if something isn't right don't just stamp your feet around saying its all wrong, stamp your feet say its wrong then tell what can be done to fix it... simple simon says!
The problem with telling what can be done to fix an image, is that it is not always that simple. Some images posted are unrecoverable. Although the best attempts are made to assist sometimes it is easier to not post a reply than be rude and say the image is a dead loss. When dealling with people in person this type of reply is possible but over an open forum it is easilly misconstrued.
Imagers like Jase have been very kind offering invaluable assistance to me over the last few years and as a general rule I try to at least comment on almost all images posted. Sometimes my advise is scant if not lacking totally but this can be the result of things outside my control and I dare say I am not the only one who suffers from pressures outside astronomy. I may choose to just comment about an image with words like. "Nice image, Take longer subs or use darks" and although short and sharp this may well be the most important upgrade I can explain. Sometimes I look at an image and think what do I post but then think back to the help I have recieved over the years and the help I still need.
It's always easy to look at an image and say Pretty Pix but it takes a bit more effort to be constructive. Come on everyone try. Me too.
Sometimes saying that to somebody is the best thing
the image is Cr4p and you wasted your time... its not fixed by a one liner! its fixed by multiple people putting ideas forward. It is upto the reciver of such responses to act accordingly to the information just like we all do, pick the eyes out and leave the rest! as astrophotography goes, you just have nights like that where everything is just up the duff. your images are stuffed, the dew heater you needed is at home the cable to get your images from the CCD to your PC is missing. you just have to accept that sometimes your photos are just that a dead loss like you say.!
Mike could there be a topic added such as Critique my work where anything said is taken for mearly what you see! not as you construde it to be!
I would support a 'Beginners Imaging' section also, but part of the criteria to post would be that you must provide as much information as possible about your image. This could be listed in a sticky:
Processing? If so, which software and any information on what you did.
That's just a start.
I think what we all would have to refrain from the idle, but good intentioned comments like "great shot" and "nice" etc... We all do it, but in this particular instance, it does not help the beginner understand what they are doing right or wrong.
I mainly do visual observing and have only dabbled in imaging for about 10 seconds, but I would use this area myself!
I understand that Mike has the IOTW for a different reason and there is no reason to confuse the two ideas. I think this idea needs serious consideration.
There is this myth that having expensive gear guarantees excellent images. This is only true if the operator knows what they are doing, and the truth is some simply don't.....and those that do have the knowledge, don't always take (or physically have) the time to get all the details right.
The last point is fairly critical, as you often have to fight/constantly adjust cheaper rigs to get them to co-operate....which eats into observing time and makes getting good data that much more of a challenge.
Blurred, trailed and noisy are all possible with *really expensive* scopes.
Knowing why these things happened is pivotal.
Effort spent on improving basic things like focus, framing, alignment, tacking, guiding, exposure time etc. will pay massive dividends....and sure, may also lead to the realization that the equipment you use has its limits...which is also a good thing as you then at least can make a really informed choice on what needs changing/upgrading.
ill get there but if theres something that i could do that will help then ill be in it faster than you can say boo. 
