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Old 15-02-2009, 11:04 PM
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Argo Navis Problem?

set up the Argo tonight and tried to do an alignment and then a goto to check accuracy.
G11 polar aligned, time, date, location entered.
encoder directions are both positive values when scope moved in ra/dec with scope on east side of mount.
acrux as alignment star then picked ngc3372 as goto object, moved scope until values read 0 on both axis, scope ends up on western side of mount pointing to the west of the southern cross? nowhere 3372, can anyone pinpoint something l am doing wrong. l have repeated this a couple of times with the same result. thanks.
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Old 16-02-2009, 12:05 AM
gary
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Check SETUP ALT STEPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by mick pinner View Post
set up the Argo tonight and tried to do an alignment and then a goto to check accuracy.
G11 polar aligned, time, date, location entered.
encoder directions are both positive values when scope moved in ra/dec with scope on east side of mount.
acrux as alignment star then picked ngc3372 as goto object, moved scope until values read 0 on both axis, scope ends up on western side of mount pointing to the west of the southern cross? nowhere 3372, can anyone pinpoint something l am doing wrong. l have repeated this a couple of times with the same result. thanks.
Hi Mick,

Chances are one or both of the encoder direction sense signs (the +/-) signs
in SETUP ALT STEPS and/or SETUP AZ STEPS is incorrect.

In particular, your SETUP ALT STEPS sign might be the one to scrutinize
first.

As you know, GEM's have the ability to point to just about any point in the
sky using the mount in two different orientations.

When you perform the alignment operation, the SETUP ALT STEPS sign
has to be set consistently with the 'side' of the mount the OTA is
on.

To appreciate this, try setting the mount so the Dec cross bar is
horizontal, with the counterweights on one side and the OTA on the other,
like a pair of weigh-lifters dumb bells. Now point the OTA to the horizon
and then raise it in altitude toward the zenith. Whilst you are doing so,
take note of which 'sense' the encoder shaft is rotating (i.e. either
clockwise or counter-clockwise depending upon your frame of reference).

Now rotate the scope in RA only by 12 hours so that the Dec axis is horizontal
again but the positions of the OTA and counter-weights are swapped.
Again slowly raise the OTA from the horizon to the zenith. Notice that
even though you are raising the OTA up in altitude, the sense of the encoder shaft
rotation has reversed compared to what it was previously?

This is an attribute of three dimensional geometry rather than some
caveat of the Argo Navis.

One can perform the initial alignment with the OTA on either side of the
mount as long as the SETUP ALT STEPS sign is set consistently for that
side you are aligning on.

When attempting to align on a star that is in that circumpolar region of the
sky, one has to think more carefully because as one goes from the horizon to
the pole, declination decreases as you get closer to -90, reaches the
minimum of -90 at the pole itself and then starts to increase again the
higher in elevation you go.

For this reason, say you have previously determined the Alt encoder
direction sense for the when the OTA is on a particular side of the
mount. When you choose the first alignment star, do not cross the
celestial pole.


Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au

Last edited by gary; 16-02-2009 at 12:10 PM.
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Old 16-02-2009, 09:50 PM
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thanks for the response Gary, l retried again tonight with the same result, encoder direction seems to be right so l am thinking that l have the wrong ammount of steps put in for the encoders, l had no way of determining this when l bought the mount secondhand so guessed at 8192 but am thinking now maybe they are 4096. would this account for the inaccurate goto's? Mick.
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Old 17-02-2009, 12:31 AM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick pinner View Post
thanks for the response Gary, l retried again tonight with the same result, encoder direction seems to be right so l am thinking that l have the wrong ammount of steps put in for the encoders, l had no way of determining this when l bought the mount secondhand so guessed at 8192 but am thinking now maybe they are 4096. would this account for the inaccurate goto's? Mick.
Hi Mick,

Depends on the vintage of the mount.

Prior to 2003 Losmandy use to ship a solution that provided 4096 steps on each axis.
Then in 2003, I flew to Hollywood, met with Losmandy and recommended they
migrate to the 8192 step solution, which they did in that year.

Try this. Dial up MODE SETUP ALT STEPS and enter some large
arbitrary value, such as 100,000. With the Dec cross axis in the
horizontal position, sight and center some distant terrestrial object.

Power OFF the unit and then power it ON. Dial up MODE ENCODER.
Spin the dial one detent click to show encoder steps.

Note the right-hand displayed value which is the Alt encoder value.
Start to rotate the OTA so the count increases, 0, 1, 2, 3, etc.
Rotate the OTA through 360 degrees and re-acquire and re-center the
target. Note the step count on the display. If it is close to 4096 it will
be 4096 steps. If it is close to 8192 it will be 8192 steps. Enter either
4096 or 8192 into SETUP ALT STEPS.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place
Mount Kuring-Gai NSW 2080
Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Fax +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #5  
Old 17-02-2009, 10:26 PM
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changed encoder steps to 4096 which is now correct, did another goto and not even close. changed RA encoder direction to - which contradicts the manual and the way the encoder was sensing the original movement in RA but it works? and points somewhat in the right direction however in ALT the value given for the ammount of movement needed for alignment on goto object is about half of what is needed, scope only moves half the required distance and the 0 value is reached.
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  #6  
Old 18-02-2009, 10:17 AM
gary
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Hi Mick,

Thanks for the post.

Did you confirm by the aforementioned procedure using MODE ENCODER
that the RA (Az) axis is only 4096 steps as well?

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Wildcard Innovations Pty Ltd.
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  #7  
Old 18-02-2009, 12:40 PM
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l couldn't do a full 360 due to scope tubes but 180 gives me 2048 so yes RA is 4096.
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  #8  
Old 18-02-2009, 12:59 PM
gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mick pinner View Post
l couldn't do a full 360 due to scope tubes but 180 gives me 2048 so yes RA is 4096.
Hi Mick,

Great. At least you have been able to identify that the installed encoders
are providing 4096 steps rather than 8192 steps.

Just to make sure there is no discontinuity anywhere, such as a gear slipping
on an encoder shaft because a set screw is not tightened of the like,
highly recommend you perform what we call the Daytime Encoder Test.
See the User Manual pp 116-117 under a title by the same name for details.

As the name of the test implies, it is best performed during daytime using
a fixed terrestrial object as a target. Once again, you will use MODE ENCODER
to check that when you rotate the scope around in both axes and re-acquire
and re-center the target that the encoder step count returns to the original
starting point with a step or two.

What we recommend is that you initially center the target with the unit powered
OFF. Then power the unit on which will zero the encoder count which
makes it easier to reference when you come around 360 degrees again.
If observing the STEPS display in MODE ENCODER, keep in mind that the
display will wrap at 4095 back to 0.

Double check that the encoder cables aren't swapped. In MODE ENCODER,
when you move the scope in RA, the left-hand displayed value should change.

Once you have performed the Daytime Encoder Test, during the early evening
polar align the mount and align on RIGEL. Confirm that you can then
GUIDE to BETELGEUSE, SIRIUS, PROCYON & CANOPUS.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Phone +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #9  
Old 18-02-2009, 07:45 PM
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well l did the daytime test and everything is as it should be, will do a couple of goto's tonight as you suggest.
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  #10  
Old 18-02-2009, 10:14 PM
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just finished the alignment and goto's after the daytime alignment.
aligned on Rigel and then did goto's to 4 other stars in the Orion region and everyone was spot on, then did a goto to NGC3372 which l was trying to centre on previous occassions with no success but this time spot on again.
l accept this with gratefullness after the help l have received from Gary, however l don't understand why it now works the way it should when l haven't actually changed any settings from yesterday when the goto accuracy was way out. not that l'm complaining.
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Old 19-02-2009, 10:51 PM
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the majority of my goto's are now very good however it will not get close to Eta Carina Neb, 5-6 targets in a row will be spot on and then try Eta and it only just appears in the finder. what l did try was centering Eta and then going to M42, perfect, now go straight back to Eta and as l said just in the finders fov. any ideas?
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  #12  
Old 20-02-2009, 12:22 AM
gary
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Arrow Argo Navis Telescope Pointing Analysis System (TPAS)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mick pinner View Post
the majority of my goto's are now very good however it will not get close to Eta Carina Neb, 5-6 targets in a row will be spot on and then try Eta and it only just appears in the finder. what l did try was centering Eta and then going to M42, perfect, now go straight back to Eta and as l said just in the finders fov. any ideas?
Hi Mick,

Thanks for the post.

Eta Carina the star or Eta Carina Nebula (aka NGC 3372)?
Keep in mind the nebula is extended and the center has a different
co-ordinate position to the star. Since the centers of many non-stellar
objects are determined by a weighted average, often from photographic survey plates,
and since the plates were sensitive at different wavelengths to that of the human
eye, what one may see visually through the telescope may not be
the complete picture compared to what was imaged photographically.

If you are after the star, use MODE CATALOG, BRIGHT STARS, CAR ETA
which is also the point many observers think of when they think of the nebula.

Now that you have established pointing, in some session in the near future,
you might want to perform a short Telescope Pointing Analysis System (TPAS)
run.

Here is a quick tutorial of how to perform a short run which acts as an
introduction to TPAS.

Stick to the GEM EXACT ALIGN setting.
Set MODE SETUP, SETUP MNT ERRORS, ACQUIRE DATA, SAMPLE MODE=ON.
Polar align the mount in your normal way (say to within a degree or better).
Align on one star.
DIAL up MODE CATALOG and the using ENTER, drill down through the
menu whereby the star you just aligned on will be the default
object that appear when you enter that menu. Eventually you will
see the GUIDE display appear. Press ENTER. The word
'DESCRIPTION' will be blinking. Spin the DIAL until it says
SAMPLE. Center the star you just aligned on and then press
ENTER to 'sample it'.

Now DIAL up MODE IDENTIFY, FIND STAR, FAINTEST MAG 3, IN ANY
CONSTEL, WITHIN 360 ARC and point to any other bright star in
the sky you are familiar with. Argo Navis should then display
its name in the top line and the bottom line will say 'FOUND'.
Hit ENTER and the GUIDE display will appear. Center the star in
the eyepiece. Hit ENTER to sample it.

Repeat the steps in the above paragraph for at least two other
stars (a total of at least four).

Go to MODE SETUP, SETUP MNT ERRORS, DEFINE MODEL.
Using the DIAL and ENTER button, set -
DEC INDEX ERROR ID=COMPUTE
HA INDEX ERROR IH=COMPUTE
POLAR LEFT-RIGHT MA=COMPUTE
POLAR VERTICAL ME=COMPUTE.
Make sure all other terms in the DEFINE MODEL sub-menu are set
to DON'T USE. Press EXIT.
In the SETUP MNT ERRORS submenu, dial up COMPUTE ERRORS and press
ENTER.
Argo Navis will scroll some information with regards the errors.
Hit ENTER at any time and successive times where it prompts you
with each of the four error terms above (ID, IH, MA & ME) and
accept them as USE NOW.

What you have done up to this point is computed and put in place
a simple model whereby the polar misalignment and what are
called the index error terms are the only terms within the
model.


If you want to get fancy, sample another star or two, or three
and in DEFINE MODEL set -
COLLIMATION ERR CH=COMPUTE
then once again, use the COMPUTE submenu and put the model 'IN USE'.

The above alone will probably make a dramatic improvement to your pointing!
To utilize the full power of TPAS, one needs to spend one evening performing
what we call a long sampling run. This entails sampling the position of
say anywhere between 40 to 100 stars across the sky. All this extra
data forms the ingredients for further analysis and may reveal other
pertinent systematic fabrication errors within your mount/OTA. TPAS then
allows you to save the value of any additional persistent error terms into
non-volatile memory. Then, on a subsequent observing run, you can re-sychronize
the model by sampling as few as two to five stars and you will then achieve
similar pointing performance as what you did on the night of the long sampling run.
TPAS is an advanced topic and is covered in the Argo Navis User's Manual in
the section on SETUP MNT ERRORS.
See http://www.wildcard-innovations.com....mentation.html
for the User Manual online in PDF format.

The magic of TPAS is that it can cut through the tangled knot of geometric,
gravitational flexure and eccentric bearing errors within the mount and
take effects such as polar misalignment and refraction into account at the
same time.

Since your mount has the 4096 step encoders, as discussed on the telephone,
at some point in the future, you might consider upgrading them to the 10,000
steps effective solution. What the higher resolution encoders do is assist TPAS.
Since the significant pointing error residuals in many mounts result from
what would be seemily small mechanical errors within the mount,
such as tiny geometric angular offsets, the higher resolution encoders
help TPAS measure and characterize them with more certainty.

Best Regards

Gary Kopff
Managing Director
Wildcard Innovations Pty. Ltd.
20 Kilmory Place, Mount Kuring-Gai
NSW. 2080. Australia
Phone +61-2-9457-9049
Phone +61-2-9457-9593
sales@wildcard-innovations.com.au
http://www.wildcard-innovations.com.au
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  #13  
Old 20-02-2009, 12:28 AM
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Hi Mick,

You might need to tighten one of the encoder shafts, dependign on how they are mounted. When I first got an Argo on my LightBridge about 10 months ago, I was getting intermittent azimuth slippage until I put a little bit of Locktite on the centre bolt. Just an idea ....

Jeff
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