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Old 21-11-2008, 02:39 PM
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Nuclear chain reaction

How do they start a nuclear chain reaction in a fission reactor?
I know we need a critical mass but what I dont know is where that first little particle comes from that splits the next and the next... do they have a gun to fire particles or is it a case that if you have a critical mass the reaction stars by itself.

AND... no I am not building one to replace the solar panels because it is wet...because it is wet I ask but it is along the line of idle curiosity.. I can not find how it starts.
alex
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Old 21-11-2008, 03:06 PM
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Can't really help out here Alex, but it seems reasonable that it has to be started somehow, may it be a gun or other device, or even an extreme heat source .

Leon
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Old 21-11-2008, 03:08 PM
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However Alex i did find this bit of info, it may be helpful.

Leon.

Fission chain reactions occur because of interactions between neutrons and fissile isotopes (such as 235U). The chain reaction requires both the release of neutrons from fissile isotopes undergoing nuclear fission and the subsequent absorption of some of these neutrons in fissile isotopes. When an atom undergoes nuclear fission, a few neutrons (the exact number depends on several factors) are ejected from the reaction. These free neutrons will then interact with the surrounding medium, and if more fissile fuel is present, some may be absorbed and cause more fissions. Thus, the cycle repeats to give a reaction that is self-sustaining.
Nuclear power plants operate by precisely controlling the rate at which nuclear reactions occur, and that control is maintained through the use of several redundant layers of safety measures. Moreover, the materials in a nuclear reactor core and the uranium enrichment level make a nuclear explosion impossible, even if all safety measures failed. On the other hand, nuclear weapons are specifically engineered to produce a reaction that is so fast and intense it cannot be controlled after it has started. When properly designed, this uncontrolled reaction can lead to an explosive energy release.
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Old 21-11-2008, 03:17 PM
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perhaps teh reaction si initiated by the proximity of a radioactive isotope of uranium ?
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Old 21-11-2008, 03:19 PM
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actually, what i said was silly.
nuclear chain reactions are initiated by themselves.
remember the uranium is radioactive.
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Old 21-11-2008, 03:51 PM
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Thank you Leon for your help and the info.
alex
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Old 21-11-2008, 03:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DJDD View Post
actually, what i said was silly.
nuclear chain reactions are initiated by themselves.
remember the uranium is radioactive.
So you think it is critical mass... with no "gun" or whatever.
I have been reading and although I have covered a lot of ground I cant see it specifically stated but that is the feeling I have... but they have these diagrams with a little particle and I wondered where it came from originally.
Thanks for your thoughts.

alex
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Old 21-11-2008, 04:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
So you think it is critical mass... with no "gun" or whatever.
exactly.
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Old 21-11-2008, 04:31 PM
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Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
alex
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Old 21-11-2008, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
alex
are you sayign my post was unnecessary (sorry if I offended) or that my explanation was the simplest of those on offer?


or am I missing a joke?
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Old 21-11-2008, 05:37 PM
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I am so sorry... I was cutting and pasting and I pasted the wrong thing..that was something from an article on the man who offered tha razor to the throath of a complex idea..or theory.

The joke is on me and I cant find what I wanted to post..or remember it actually...but it was the simple answer is often the best.

alex
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Old 21-11-2008, 05:39 PM
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AND I can not be offended I never take things personal... comes from chosing to live alone I guess.

alex
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Old 21-11-2008, 06:04 PM
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AND I cant translate it by the way ...
but back to critical mass...
Can a block of lead have a critical mass I wonder...I have a reason for wondering.
In other words if ou had a block of lead big enough will we get a chain reaction... and lets place the lead in a high gravity environment.. building a new universe here and need that bit.

alex
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Old 21-11-2008, 09:32 PM
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Alex a reactor doesn't use a critical mass, that in fact is called a bomb. A reactor uses control rods to keep the "pile" below this value, to have nice a "controlled" reaction. The reaction happens spontaneously, because it is radioactive, that's what radioactive things do decay. The nuclear decay gives off heat this heat is what is used to generate power.
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Old 22-11-2008, 08:52 AM
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Thank you Kenny...
I am just fitting nuclear power into the push universe
alex
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Old 22-11-2008, 10:43 AM
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You take a bowling ball size lump of highly enriched Uranium and Plutonium. This has to be machined to be almost perfectly spherical and of constant density - you'll see why later. It has a hollow clyinder that is used to hold tritium rods that are fired into the ball just before just before implosion and neutron bombardment.

You send the tritium rods into the ball then implode this combined entity with a shaped charge (say surround the ball with an inch and a half of a two layer (slow than fast burn) C4 derivatives (miltary grade explosive with an extremely high burn rate - say 7,000 metres per second on the outer and 10,000 metres per second on the inner - with tungsten-rhenium drivers and on the otherside of this charge facing the ball is a 1cm thickenss of Berllyium - touch a 1mm thickness of U-235 surround a 10 kg mass og plutonium 239) that is ignited by 240 special denotators linked to krypton switches on precisely measured lengths (typically 1 metre) of cables to your denotator box containing high voltage capacitors linked to a timer. Your charges have to go off within a nanosecond (called a shake) of each others to crush the ball into an almost perfectly round much smaller ball. You want the bowling ball crushed to the size of a tennis ball. If the shaped charges aren't perfect your bang bang is goofed.

So the key challenge is mechanical - you need to refine P-239 (and avoid unstable P-240 which is likely to go off prematurely) crush it with a million atomspheres of pressure with a precisely shaped spherical wave that must be re-shaped to a planar wave implosion

About 5 shakes after your implosion you shoot high energy neutrons (from a zipper - a small cyclotron through a lithium-deuteride disk the size of your palm about 8 mm thick into the crushed ball though the Beryllium. This means you slow neutron source (travelling about 10% light speed hit the compressing P-239 core (already 10 times denser than lead and imploding) in trillions of places at once and fall under the Strong Nuclear force of the P-239 and get captured - turning it into unstable P-240) - bingo Nuclear reaction. The P-240 decays into two simpler atoms - but annihilating either a proton of a neutron and releasing 3 neutrons in the process - that will further incite P-239 or P-240 - runaway chain reaction follows at a geometric rate.

Crushing the ball into a smaller size raises its density above critical mass (which really should be critical density). The tritium explosion is racing in and out at 7,000 feet a second - but reaching chaing reaction takes less than 200 shakes - so the pressure wave of the shaped charge travels less than 2 feet before fission (run away chain reaction) has intiiated.

About 10% of your mass will be annihilated so a 10 kg ball releases about 1 * (3 * 10 ^ 8) ^ 2 newtons of energy.

Now if that ball if surrounded by a compressed source of hydrogen the fission reaction releases enough energy as heat (bewteen 10 - 100 million degrees celcius) to trigger a fusion reaction so you've gone from an atomic weapon (fission bomb) to a hydrogen bomb (fusion weapon) that releases between 10 - 1000 times more energy.

Lead doesn't fuse - it takes more energy than it releases - you need a really massive, and atomically unstable atom what wants to radioactive decay - to trigger fission. All you are doing is suping up the decay rate a trillion times or so!

(Source: Surprisingly accurate - Tom Clancy - The sum of all fears - pg 793 - 798)

Last edited by g__day; 22-11-2008 at 11:08 AM.
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  #17  
Old 22-11-2008, 01:10 PM
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In a nuclear reactor, the control rods are of a highly neutron absorbing element. When the reactor is shutdown, the rods are fully down in the reactor core essentially capturing the free neutrons. As they're raised, neutrons from the radioactive fuel begin to react with the fuel itself. By react I mean a fuel atom captures a free neutron and undergoes fission, releasing energy. Each atom that undergoes fission produces more free neutrons, so the reaction increases.

Reactors also use what are called moderators. A moderator is an element that slows down the neutron (a slow neutron is easier captured than a fast one). The neutron "bounces" off a moderator atom and imparts (loses) energy.

The thing to remember is that elements below iron on the periodic table release energy during fusion, but need energy to split (ie fission). Hydrogen releases the most energy, helium the next ..... upto iron. This is why main sequence stars sit fusing hydrogen into helium in their core, but once the hydrogen begins to run out, the core begins to collapse until it reaches a hot enough temp to fuse the helium ..... massive stars follow this down to iron cores ... no more fusion ... supernova. Smaller stars only fuse down to helium and carbon and leave a white dwarf behind, which is the "dead" stellar core.

Once you get past iron, it's fission that produces energy, with the far end of the periodic table near uranium producing the most energy.

Andrew.
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  #18  
Old 22-11-2008, 05:24 PM
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Thanks for all that Matt and Andrew sure is interesting stuff.

alex
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Old 25-12-2008, 12:00 PM
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The OPAL reactor in Lucas Heights initiates its reaction via a neutron source or gun. The fuel elements themselves which I think are 20% enriched dont spontaneously produce a chain reaction, as mentioned before this is a fission bomb.
In OPAL, the reactor is shut down every month or so for maintenance and fuel movement but the neutron gun will not be needed to restart the reaction due to secondary neutrons being present from the previous run which will suffice to initiate the reaction again.
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Old 25-12-2008, 08:53 PM
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