Hi all, Don't know if you've seen this one before, >(www.spaceandastronomy.com.au/prod548.htm)
It's 3.3 meg, Peltier cooled with 10,000 seconds exposure time. (3 hrs?). All for just $.............. go visit. L.
Same chip as the Sac 10 one shot colour camera.
The sac has USB ports and an extra for auto guider but the Australian price will be higher due to conversion factor.
Also the sac has a smaller barrel size and will be upgradable to monochrome.
Does any one know who the manufacturer is of this other unit ?
No, I just googled it using a variety of combinations but couldn't get anything other than the SAC 10. The SAC definitely looks like a better option although at a greater price. Problem with this sort of stuff is that you can pick up a Canon 300D or (10D if you look hard) for around this price and you will get a MUCH better image. The attached image (although massively reduced in quality and resolution for web) was the first image I took after getting my 10D, straight out of the box. Nothing I have seen from the cheaper CCD imagers (non SBIG etc) comes close to what I have seen done with Canons.
Can't agree there.You need to look a bit more.
Sac 10's aren't out yet so no images for comparing, look for a similar size chiped Star light express images .
They more expensive here in OZ but are using similar size cooled chips as the SAC 9 10 11 12 and 13.
Cooled CCD's give better quality with less noise and better sensitivity images in less time than un cooled CMOS chips in DSLR's.
You want to go deep and i mean truly deep in less time then cooled CCD is the way to go.
True the Modified DSLR's are giving good results but i said modified.You need to remove the IR blocking filter to get the full spectrum back into the images.There lacking the deep reds of an un filterd chip.
I don't think there would be such a large Cooled CCD market if they didn't perform.
Sorry MHodson but I have done plenty of looking and using
Your link was to Starlight Xpress and most of those camera's costs many thousands of dollars. Nobody looking at a SAC is going to be considering a Starlight Xpress. I have owned both Meade camera's, a Starlight Express MX716 (over $3000.00 when I bought it), a non modified Canon 10D and I have also owned an SBIG and am currently negotiating the purchase of another. I have produced images using these cameras through a range of telescopes including 8" SCT's, 12"SCT's and 80mm Orion APO's. There is no question that a high end camera will kill a non cooled Canon DSLR. But so they should at prices ranging from 3K to 11K what else would you expect them to do. The Canons have produced remarkable pictures out of the box that cannot be matched by anything in a similar price bracket including SAC's and the Meade DSI's. Perhaps you are operating under the belief that the non cooled non modified camera cannot go deep?
The attached images are recognisable to us all and were taken with my unmodified Canon 10D, exposures are 24 minutes made up of combining 1 minute images and were taken from the Golden Grove Observatory in WA earlier this Year.
My point was more about value for money and pretty pictures than anything else. You can produce pictures that a printable and frameable (in A3 size if you want) easily with the Canons but that is not true of most other cooled camera's out there for anything approaching the same dollars. Remember you can be set up with a Canon including focusing and image management software for less than $1500.00. I have seen the results of regular Joes using those other cameras and they are for the most part not something you would frame and hang on your wall. Just for fun I spent the last 20 minutes flicking through editions of Sky and telescope for images in the readers gallery and what I noticed was a lot of SBIG, Canon 300D and 10D images but I didn't find any SAC or low cost Starlight Xpress or similar images. Simply put if you want to produce an image that you would love to show to a non astro nut then you need to spend very big bucks or go the DSLR route.
You made the point that you don't think there would be such a large Cooled CCD market if they didn't perform. Correct but then there hasn't been an uncooled DSLR market until the last few years and look what a change that has introduced even Canon are producing a specific model of camera for Astronomers...
As an aside Chris Venter, developer of DSLRFocus is a friend of mine and has sold over 1800 copies of his software so far.
Apologies for the long reponse but I AM a user of these cameras and HAVE spent more time than I should looking at the results of many users and they DONT stack up.
Last edited by p medcraft; 14-07-2005 at 06:13 PM.
Here here... I was thinking of responding along similar lines, but my conscience got the better of me, and I could never had worded a responce like that...
You've got my vote with DSLR..... I imaged the Barnard's galaxy the other weekend with an unmodified camera, and that object it very dim!! DSLR's can go deep, no question!
Also there is an image in the latest AS&T of M66/67 that I took awhile back with 300D. You'd struggle to get that sort of FOV with a mid-range cooled CCD. For my money anyway!
Cheers
Thanks Robby
I did get a bit warm around the collar so apologies to all and MHodson in particular but there is no question that the introduction of DSLR's has changed astro imagery in the same way that CCD has done to film. Chris Venter has produced some stunning images using his Canon's as have countless others. First a correction, Chris has sold 3000 copies not 1800 as I stated earlier which I guess higlights the point rather nicely.
This is the issue, prior to the influx of DSLR's the number of "God that is good, why isn't it framed?" images was relatively small and we heaped praise on the producers of these images. Today they are everywhere and they are using DSLR's or they are spending big bucks because they cut their teeth on DSLR's and now want to create masterpieces. Case in point:
The August edition of Australian Sky and Tel features a two page image of the Lagoon by Chris venter not using a DSLR but an SBIG ST2000XM with AO7. Now the cost of that set up not including telescope? Lets face it more than most of us would ever be allowed to spend and that doesn't include his G11 Gemini and TAK refractor.
He cut his teeth on DSLR's and has moved into the big league.
Actually I have had CCd imagers in the past as well when the price was even more astronomical for smaller chip sizes , and am in the market again for a new imager .
I have toyed with getting a Factory moded $2500 Canon 20DI (ask Tony on that one) and the US Hutec modified $2000 300 and 350's but I want to do more than one shot colour images.(OZ prises)
I want monochrome with the choice of doing LRGB or Ha ect ect and don't want to be waiting for a CMOS to cool after each individual shot.
Might be fine for a while but am past that .
I have considered both Starlight -Ex and the similar chipped sized SAC's .Both of these cameras are marketed as budget cameras in the respected country but it's that magical phenomenon of the Australian $ value and Astro dealer mark ups that make these camera's even more prohibitive.
Importing ones self reduces some of this.
It would be nice if we had our own CCD imager range.
I still find the colour range and shorter imaging times of the even smaller 1/3" and 1/2" starlight cameras more appealing than the DSLR's , and wait for a sample of the larger chipped Sac's images before making my choice.
Sorry Guys that's how i see it.
Give me a cooled monochrome DSLR ---may be.
Not sure where the idea that you have to wait between images with a DSLR comes from ? I have taken 100's of images with a DSLR and have never ever done this. Out of habit I program a 15 - 20 second pause between images but this is to allow download of frames to the Flash Card not for cooling.
You can pick up used 300D's now for less than $1100AU and pulling the filter out of them is pretty easy with step by step, screw by screw instructions here:
Ahh, that would be the ticket!
We are probably closer to agreement than the posting would have suggested. For pretty pictures with a minimum of fuss the DSLR's are dollar for dollar great to outstanding value but the moment you want to do any sort of science such as photometry you are stuffed. Lack of binning is also an issue which is why I am considering an SBIG at the moment. I like imaging galaxies and the problem with the very large chipped DSLR's (imagine that, complaining about a chip being too large?) is that you end up with a great starfield and a tiny galaxy.
I had actually taken some interest in the SAC10 myself for that reason.
Wow, I didn't expect all the 'responses' to this when I posted. Sorry to have found the link, guys. Just thought it might be of interest to some.
ps. Welcome Chris. L.
It's a good and frank discussion, with some interesting points being raised! The DSLRs are a great way into DSO imaging at a low cost, and if you don't remove the filter (and have some lenses on hand) then you have a great terrestrial camera as well.
The cost of the cooled CCD cameras are out of the league of the ordinary amateur astrophotographer.. the DSLR's fill a need, without a doubt.
Yep Rajah, you certainly unleashed a torrent. I have definite ideas here as you all know, but man come on guys this is supposed to be a friendly forum.
Aren't we all batting for the same team?
is there something special they use for cooling? It looks to me like a standard sorta heatsink and fan.. Does it just cool down the CCD chip? U could probably make one up..
EL,They use what is called a 'Peltier' device.(sort of like 2 metal plates insulated from each other. By passing current thru it in one direction, you get one side of it to heat & the other side to cool. This peltier unit is a SPECIAL build. They are tiny in comparison to what Co's. like 'Oatley Electronics' etc sell..& AFAIK only cool the chip, which is all that's needed. The fan looks like a standard sized one, may be a bit smaller. This is simply used to remove the heat from the 'HOTPLATE'., so making the cool plate cooler.
Hard to tell the scale. L.
See attached...Sorry Mike, it's 130 k. Lose res if any smaller.
Last edited by RAJAH235; 15-07-2005 at 11:27 PM.
Reason: extra info.
L.
Apologies for the long reponse but I AM a user of these cameras and HAVE spent more time than I should looking at the results of many users and they DONT stack up.
Sorry to have found the link, guys. 
Just thought it might be of interest to some. 
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