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Old 22-01-2008, 08:46 AM
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bkm2304 (Richard Brown)
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Question The most southern named star ....I think!

I am trying to find out the southern - most star with a proper name. So far I have Miaplacidus (Beta carinae) at J2000 of -69:43:03.2. Just north of it is Atria (Alpha T Australis) at J2000 of -69:01:40.1.

But I don't know if this is the end of the matter. There may be a named star lurking around the pole, its proper name long since fallen from use. Maybe named by some 18th century type?

Any advances on Miaplacidus???
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Old 22-01-2008, 09:24 AM
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I think you have it. Avior is probably too far north.
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Old 22-01-2008, 10:56 AM
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erick (Eric)
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Unless you can find where someone from up north has named Beta or Gamma Hydri, I think you have it. They are the only other bright-ish candidates further south?

Mind you, I'd expect that the Australian Aborigines had names for many of these stars!
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Old 22-01-2008, 11:54 AM
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Sigma Octantis (Dec -88°55') is sometimes referred to as 'Polaris Australis', amongst others in Burnham's Handbook Vol. II.

Whether or not this is an officially IAU-approved label I'm not sure - I even wonder if there is a standard for common star names, given the confusion about all these Deneb's, Suhail's etc.... and we won't go into the different transcriptions of arabic names
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Old 22-01-2008, 12:54 PM
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Yes indeed, sigma octans! I have had a look at the digital map collection at the Australian National Library - just a glance. Very interesting for a look at how the southern sky has been represented in the past. Have a peek:

http://www.nla.gov.au/digicoll/

Erick, you are right about the aboriginal names for the stars as well as other cultures in similar latitudes.

This could really grow into a very big search couldn't it!

Richard
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Old 23-01-2008, 01:28 AM
AJames
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Smile Far Southern Star Names

Sigma octans is the Bayer designation, but is not a "common name." There is another star invisible to the naked-eye, that is referred to as "A Oct", which was closest to the pole in about 1990, which is about 10.6 magnitude. This has the position of 13h 16m 58s -89d 52' 39" (2000). This was labelled as such in the 1950's as the identifier for the south celestial pole, but its actual origin I unsure of - might be Stromlo or during the AAO field testing?

Another is B Oct (6.5 magnitude), which was closest to the pole until about 1950, but since then is now further than Sigma Octanis. [Neither A or B Oct are designated variables.]

(This forms an important second smaller or littler trapezium of stars, which can be used to visually identify the pole - often required when field-testing for a southern observatory site or precise alignment of the polar axis - taking into account various effects like optical aberrations, atmospheric refraction, flexure, etc..

If you mean "southern named star", then I presume this is as a proper name.

If so, I only know that brightest star is Apus is the yellow Gamma Apodis, at merely 3.8 magnitude, and this was also once known as "Avis", meaning "important" and derived partially from the Latin - but this name isn't very popular. The declination of this orange star -77 deg 30' 02".
Furthermore, Delta (1,2) Apodis (Apus) 16h 20m 21s -78 deg 41' 45' and 16h 20m 27s -78 deg 40' 03", being also the wide double star, BSO 22, is also known to have a name as well - seen as the "red bird's eyes" - seen on many colourful birds - but I can't remember the actual reference. Darn! It is, however, slight south than gamma Aps, which would make it the most southern. (I'll have to find this reference in a more detailed source, though. Sorry.)

As for stars around 3rd or 4th magnitude - certainly Miaplacidus is the most southern. (there are ten other candidates - none that I know of have a proper name. Ie. delta, gamma Mus, alpha Men, beta and gamma Hydrus, beta and delta Octans, alpha Apodis, and epsilon and zeta Pavo.)

Of these a new common name, which I think is apt is Alpha Mensa, which could be named Amen - amen indeed!!

Regards
Andrew


Note: I have two interesting articles at my site on this general subject, if you would would like some general detail; Namely....
"ON the PROPER NAME ‘GACRUX’ and the NAMING of OTHER SOUTHERN STARS" See http://homepage.mac.com/andjames/Page206.htm

and
"GREEK
LETTER DESIGNATIONS of SOUTHERN STARS"
http://homepage.mac.com/andjames/Page208.htm

Last edited by AJames; 23-01-2008 at 04:00 AM. Reason: Updated information II
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Old 23-01-2008, 03:29 AM
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Smile IAU "Star Names"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlsson View Post
...Sigma Oct.. officially IAU-approved label I'm not sure
Karlsson

There are in fact no real "approved" names for bright stars by the IAU - favouring the more (puerile?) sterile cat numbers. Obviously, Sirius, Canopus, Arcturus, Vega, Rigel Kent, etc, will not be changed in any time soon - so I suppose these could be considered true star names - though they are named differently in China until very recently.

Most are just made by ancient or 19th century observers that have fallen in common usage. Some do have recognised names, Ie. Programmed in places like like SIMBAD (See http://simbad.u-strasbg.fr/simbad/sim-fid ) that can read them if typed. There are roughly about 100 used in SIMBAD at best. Most have been formally adopted for navigation by aviators and yachters in standard visual charts, but these days are mostly not need ed- exterminated almost entirely by the waterproof and unsinkable GPS units. (However, it is an important back-up when all else fails. These days some boats, for example, may have several GPS units!)

The important ones, assigned to stars say above 3rd magnitude, can be viewed as "cannon", but many of the fainter ones are merely given as they occupy places near brighter stars. The usage is frankly are fairly randomly used. I read somewhere there are 158 recognised named stars, selected by historical or established usage - which is about what one would expect - at least the could be seen in an major city with the naked-eye (except perhaps London and New York, where no stars are sometimes visible).
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Old 23-01-2008, 03:49 AM
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Exclamation South Celestial Pole : Identification Images

:I have attached two images of the SCP, which were taken using 20cm. The magnitude limit is about 14.5 to 15th.
These small grahics shows the path of the SCP due to precession, whose large arc moves around the south ecliptic pole. There are two images;

1: Is about very roughly 5x3 degrees across - showing the wider field and the "larger" trapezium seen visually in dark sky or through the finder (left of the arc) The here arc is broken into units of 10 years. Near the arc are the stars A and B Oct - which are the used "pole stars" for telescopic alignment.

2: Is a narrower field, covering roughly 1.0x0.7 degrees in size, and this shows the brighter stars around the south celestial pole in a bit more detail

Both can be used for polar alignment for almost any purpose one might imagine - except perhaps for rigourous survey work or setting up a pro-observatory!

This should really answer the questions stated in this thread, but these figures are also useful for precise alignment of telescopes.

Hope this helps....
Andrew

NOTE: Read the response below entitled "Far Southern Star Names" for further elaboration on this...
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Old 23-01-2008, 06:24 AM
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Had a squiz at Wikipedia....they know it all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_Octantis
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Old 23-01-2008, 07:33 AM
AJames
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Angry Quick Edit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobj View Post
Had a squiz at Wikipedia....they know it all

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sigma_Octantis
Yes, but this now this fortunately reads much better...

"Sigma Octantis is sometimes called '''Polaris Australis''', or [[South Star]], though it has never been officially recognised as such. If the name has only been created to mark the pole. It is certainly a modern invention."

This seems to me just another classic example of northern hemisphere bias. Polaris is a northern star name - and bears little resemblance to this little faint star. Next we will have some tourist trying to find south using this presumed bright southern star, get lost somewhere in the central Australian desert, then dying of thirst looking for something that they can't see!!

Really.... Why does everything have to some mirror of something in the northern sky?

Grrrrr!!!! Damn. My glasses just fogged up!

I know no other reference to this particular name. If you or anyone can point this out in a credible printed article I would really appreciate it. Wiki rules state there must be an official reference source. This article on this issue is thus hearsay - at least until it is properly referenced!

Andrew
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Old 23-01-2008, 08:31 AM
AJames
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Smile Rose By Any Other Name...

Just did a Google search...

I have just posted an e-mail to James Kaler, who seems to be the source of the name - presumably written in his book "The Hundred Greatest Stars".

He claims this was assigned in 1700, but there is no reference backing this up. The only southern observer positioning these stars was Lacaille, who did so in the years 1751-52.

Kaler also mentions this name as a casual quip in his "star" webpage
http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/polaust.html

The definitive source of Star names is Richard Allen's "Star-Names and their Meaning" (1899). he does not mention sigma Octanis at al in pages 296 and 297 on the constellation. As the constellation was named by John Hadley in 1730 - makes the Polaris Australis name even more doubtful being named 30 years earlier. Even so, this would suggest that any such name would have been added in the 20th Century!

As for the Brazilian flag. The graphic of the sky represents the sky as seen from Rio de Janerio on 15th November 1889 at 08:30 a.m. when the Constitution was signed. Sigma Octantis ("σ" Octantis; south pole star) was supposed to represent the central capital of Brazil. The document of the introduction of the flag, written in Portuguese, only references the star as Sigma Octanis - and nothing else. This is also discussed in "Os Símbolos Nacionais"
(The National Symbols) of 1986 - stating the same.

As for the need for a southern pole star, would have been unnecessary, as the sailors would use the Southern Cross longest axis. The Cross would have been used, only because sigma octanis would have been invisible to the unaided eye in poor conditions.

These are my reasons I think the usage is very doubtful...

Andrew

NOTE: You can read a more extensive appraisal of finding south, using the Cross (and other means) at my trial pages for my website at;

Guide to the Southern Cross at;
http://au.geocities.com/ariane2au/PageSCross001.htm

Finding South
http://au.geocities.com/ariane2au/PageSCross004.htm
and
http://au.geocities.com/ariane2au/PageSCross005.htm

With the changes of the Cross due to proper motion through the millennia at;

http://au.geocities.com/ariane2au/PageSCross006.htm

Last edited by AJames; 23-01-2008 at 08:46 AM. Reason: Added Reference
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Old 23-01-2008, 01:36 PM
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Your all looking too hard, the star that is closest to the southern pole, irrespective of your observing location is Sol. Its magnitude is about -26 but can not be viewed at night.




before anyone comments about this post.....I am only joking.

Dennis.
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Old 23-01-2008, 06:02 PM
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bkm2304 (Richard Brown)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AJames View Post


If so, I only know that brightest star is Apus is the yellow Gamma Apodis, at merely 3.8 magnitude, and this was also once known as "Avis", meaning "important" and derived partially from the Latin - but this name isn't very popular. The declination of this orange star -77 deg 30' 02".
Ignosce mihi, O Jacobe, but the old latin scholar in me has awoken! Avis is latin for bird and this makes sense being in constellation of Apus the bird of paradise, which interestingly refers to "no feet" -English descendents are "pedal" and "pedestrian" the "a" prefix denoting no feet. You see this in the genitive - or possessive - case "apodis" - and it is not far to pedal (so to speak) and pedestrian in English. I think you mean the adjective, gravis - meaning heavy or weighty or important - eg gravitas.

Ricardus sum!
Vales!
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Old 23-01-2008, 07:29 PM
AJames
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Smile Aves in manus manus est dignitas duos in frutex

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkm2304 View Post
Ignosce mihi, O Jacobe, but the old latin scholar in me has awoken! Avis is latin for bird and this makes sense being in constellation of Apus the bird of paradise, which interestingly refers to "no feet" -English descendents are "pedal" and "pedestrian" the "a" prefix denoting no feet. You see this in the genitive - or possessive - case "apodis" - and it is not far to pedal (so to speak) and pedestrian in English. I think you mean the adjective, gravis - meaning heavy or weighty or important - eg gravitas.

Ricardus sum!
Vales!
No, pardon me!

You are perfectly correct, I've mixed up with the word gravis. The "no feet" translation is I think from the Greek. The Latin word for bird I also think is sometimes Aves

This faint southern constellation is based on the Papua/New Guinea "Superb Bird of Paradise" - Lophorina superba, and was introduced to the sky by Pieter Keyser and Frederick Houtman around 1596. The males and females are completely different colours - which I presume the greenish-blue and bluish-black male as it has the more obvious plumage.

Oddly there is actually no Bird of Paradise per se, as the name refers to the group of birds of the tropical rainforests - hence Birds of Paradise.

Gamma Apodis itself is the place of the eye of the Bird of Paradise. I notice however, that Stellarium, for example, places the star near the underbelly of the bird. When the wings are folded, it lies in the centre of the greenish-blue wing.

Also the actual brightest star in Apus is probably open to debate. Alpha is 3.80 V magnitude and is a K5III type stars. Gamma is 3.85V magnitude. Some older sources state Gamma is brighter - but it is much of a muchness to the naked-eye.

Andrew

(Aves in manus manus est dignitas duos in frutex-
Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush!)
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