A new decent law is called for.

[xelasnave]

The David Hicks matter has been resolved but it seems even now there is no law in place that says no Australian can fight for another country.

It must be made a condition of belonging to our wonderful nation that no citizen may fight in a battle in which Australia is not directly involved preferrably where Australia has made a declaration of war.

Such a law must be passed and strictly respected with no qualification that the war in which any seek to fight is just or otherwise.

Why is this law not being mooted given the recent events that saw such confusion over what should be a clear matter?

I do not think that is an unreasonable proposition and find it lamentable that the passing of such a law is not the first thing on the parliament floor raised for debate.

Alex

[mill (Martin)]

I vote yes for such a law.
And it should also say that if you fight for another country that you loose every right for help from Australia.
I would go so far as to say that if you fight for another country, you will not be an Australian anymore.
Hope this is not to harsh for some people but this is just my opinion.

[xelasnave]

I can not understand why such a law has not been there from the start..it should have been in the Constitution ... I can not imagine anyone who would be upset by such a law who is a true Australian.. and I doubt if many/any fight in others wars so who would be upset..If one is in a dual citizen ship situation maybe they have a need but that need must be surrendered as a condition of Australian citizen ship.
alex

[mill (Martin)]

About the dual citizenship.
It shouldn't be there at all, you are A:Australian or B:not
I am born in The Netherlands (Holland) and i even think that dual citizenship shouldn't be allowed.
Ps: Moderators pls delete this post if it is offensive.

[avandonk]

I agree Alex then Australian troops would never have fought in the Boer War, WW1, Korean War, Vietnam War need I go on?

Bert

[xelasnave]

Bert I had no idea that was the case and raises another point that maybe Australian soldiers should not be called upon to fight in a war if no declaration of war is made by the Australian government.

That may see political parties less capable of jumping in and getting us into conflicts without thinking the matter thru.

In view of your observation about our involvement in the wars listed and why the matter was not dealt with in the original draft of our constitution, I can see it may be a matter of at that time we were merely seen as a branch of the Brittish Empire..well those days are gone even if out political system is still happy to have the head of state the monarch of another country we could at least address the nuts and bolts issue of stopping Australian citizens fighting for anyone but Australia.
It can only do us harm with no value for the Australian people coming from such un necessary participation. I dont know that we have anyone who does fight overseas at the moment but if the Libs or Labor are serious about the Hick problem maybe something will be done to see the appropriate law pushed before the parliment.
alex

[Dujon]

I think, Alex, that you'd better get a piece of tailwag's paper, sit in a quiet room and have a think.

There are too many grey areas, old son. If you said someone who fought against Australia then you might have my sympathy. I am English by birth, though I have lived in this country for 50 odd years, and am still rated as a 'permanent resident'. Even though my wife is Australian and my children also, I haven't bothered with Australian citizenship. I rather like this country so my decision has come down to finances - last time I looked it was about $155 + a few hours of travel on a few occasions - and, of course, being a lazy and impecunious old phart I simply couldn't care less. I reckon that I'm as good an Aussie as any other person born here - except of course when the Ashes series is under way.

My father-in-law was seconded to the RAF during WWII. He flew out of (and trained new pilots at) Scapa Flow. Where would that place him?

[avandonk]

That is why the UN was instituted after WW2 to stop 'adventures' by powerful nations. Only actions sanctioned by the Security Council of the UN were lawful such as the efforts in Afghanistan. The war in Iraq is technically a crime under current International Law. Technically Bush,Blair and Howard can be tried as committing crimes against International Law.

The really sad thing is nothing has changed throughout human history. Old men whose prostates are bigger than their brain sending young men to die for only one reason GREED!

Bert

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by Dujon

I think, Alex, that you'd better get a piece of tailwag's paper, sit in a quiet room and have a think.

There are too many grey areas, old son. If you said someone who fought against Australia then you might have my sympathy. I am English by birth, though I have lived in this country for 50 odd years, and am still rated as a 'permanent resident'. Even though my wife is Australian and my children also, I haven't bothered with Australian citizenship. I rather like this country so my decision has come down to finances - last time I looked it was about $155 + a few hours of travel on a few occasions - and, of course, being a lazy and impecunious old phart I simply couldn't care less. I reckon that I'm as good an Aussie as any other person born here - except of course when the Ashes series is under way.

My father-in-law was seconded to the RAF during WWII. He flew out of (and trained new pilots at) Scapa Flow. Where would that place him?

John I am politically uninformed that is my problem however I would question why such a reasonable proposition is unreasonable.
more thinking upon the matter may find the proposition against to be more unreasonable than I currently view it to be... but my mind is by no means closed I an reasonable that is why I suggest the proposition of foghting for your country and keeping out of external conflicts .

It is unfortunate that you have not become a citizen in my view I simply can not understand why you would not wish to become a citizen. It can be put down to appathy or lack of commitment quickly by someone like me but I would be interested to hear your views rather than miss the benefit of someone elses opinion .
If you pay tax here, if your children are born here if your live here why not become a citizen I cant imagine that you would not be accepted and welcomed ... being a citizen does not change where you were born but it says somethibg about your commitment to the nation and to other Australians ... so I offer my opinion without the benefit of thinking and am certainly open to your views as I am simply curious to understand your thoughts on the matter .
And if anyone thinks I am a republican I say no I am not .. I think a constutional monarchy is the best system ... bar none . I would like to see the Queen live some of the time in Australia or at least one of the family ..Why a monarch provises a role model and given the available role models currently on offer I say why not .. I have seen my Queen only once in my life ( I was 5 years old so its been a while)and that is probably more than most of her subjects in this country have had the pleasure .
alex

[xelasnave]

Originally Posted by avandonk

That is why the UN was instituted after WW2 to stop 'adventures' by powerful nations. Only actions sanctioned by the Security Council of the UN were lawful such as the efforts in Afghanistan. The war in Iraq is technically a crime under current International Law. Technically Bush,Blair and Howard can be tried as committing crimes against International Law.

The really sad thing is nothing has changed throughout human history. Old men whose prostates are bigger than their brain sending young men to die for only one reason GREED!

Bert

Greed no Bert it is all about bringing democracy to the world how could you even suggest such a thing
I love the organ comparison you may well be on the money with that one
alex

[Karls48 (Karl)]

I agree with Dujon, it is not as simple as it looks. Some countries use “Jus Sanguinis” (right of blood) principle to determine citizenship. It means that person, even if born here, of foreign parent will automatically become citizen of the country where his parent was born. In some countries such a person, if he comes for visit, may be drafted for national service

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

Originally Posted by Dujon

I think, Alex, that you'd better get a piece of tailwag's paper, sit in a quiet room and have a think.

Thank you John, it's nice to be remembered for something, even a blank sheet of paper

Okay, someone has to be the Devils advocate in this, so why hasn't anyone mentioned 'Peace keeping' troops. Currently most Aussies fighting overseas are their at the request of the reigning government and there on humanitarian grounds, fighting against evil.

As Karl points out, it is not black and white, there certainly are many gray (grey) areas, 'Peace keeping' is one of them. Yes I hear you say, but obviously Tailwag, that will be an exception to the rule....Ahhhhh....so the exceptions have begun already....

[xelasnave]

Must be simpler than the current tax law .
I still can not see a problem ..start with a basic statement..Australian citizens shall not fight unless under the Australian flag .. laws make exceptions..so lets add.. leave may be granted to fight for another country upon application to the Minister of Defence having regard to the following ... the applicant shall renounce Australian citizenship.

Or something similar to make Australians fighting under another flag clear cut as illegal...and to deter people concerning themselves with other countries problems and demonstrating less interest in their country Australia.
If a citizen or resident it is after all their country and they can respect the law I suggest... it is not a complex matter.

Where is the problem I dont see one .. All I suggest is that such a law will not see such a mess as David Hicks ever again... If such a law were in place would he have gone in the first place . Where is the grey here ?
If this is your country stay here be interested in it not other places or causes.. if your interest is so great that you must fight elsewhere surrender citizen ship... you want to do it thatway all will still respect your belief I would think... but dont fight elsewhere and enjoy peace here as a matter of convenience.
How can any Australian object to this .
What do I miss if you come from the UK for example and wish to fight in a war they declare...resign from Australia and take out citizenship in the UK .
ANY problems exist because of the current law ..man made and hopefully with the number of lawyers available can be fixed .
We do not have to leave things the way they were yesterday because there are some grey areas.In fact it was the grey area that saw the confusion re Hicks..there would be no confusion under the law I suggest.
Maybe I should write to the Queen
anyways I dont want to close the arguement if anyone can offer a decent reason to say Australians should be free to fight elsewhere ..be it a good cause or not it should never be up to the individual to decide however . Who is to decide between a good war that is OK and a bad war that you must stay out of. .. really lets fix it even if it takes two lawyers working all day on the problem .
alex

[xelasnave]

Lock the door Andrew I am sick of talking about Law geez I have had enough in my life...thinking about the tax act makes me want to lay down for a while.
alex

[DobDobDob (Ron)]

So Alex, the next time I walk past several men beating and kicking one poor wretch, I must just keep walking because it is not my war? Not my problem?

As we evolve our species we are naturally drawn to protect the downtrodden, we celebrate our heroes who place the needs of others ahead of their own.

It is just not in our nature to turn our backs on our brothers in need.

In this sense, the war that we would participate in is a noble cause. The problem is sorting out the reality of each situation from the rhetoric.

A blanket statement (law) that we must not fight unless we declare war (I assume you also include defend against war declared against us), simply can't be that simple. Alex do you honestly think all the good men in the world in last few hundred years haven't come to the same conclusion as you, yet that simplistic view is just untenable in the real world.

Yours is an idealistic view but sadly the reality is that bad things happen, every single day, and sometimes we are needed to make a stand (our fight or not) against the evils that exist. Once again, the problem is knowing the evil, for it can exist in many forms

[RB (Andrew)]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

Lock the door Andrew I am sick of talking about Law geez I have had enough in my life...thinking about the tax act makes me want to lay down for a while.
alex

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