Snow flakes and human thought

xelasnave · #1 20-03-2007, 10:06 AM

In an effrot to confine my thinking to astronomy related matters, the weather and human thinking consider this statement of "fact"

..
No two snow flakes are the same.
How many times have we all heard this and being human repeat it as a fact?
I seize upon such a statement to suggest so much of science (and any other thing you care to mention really) is built sometimes upon an unsupported "fact"... having moved past the original premise all that follows icauses all the facts to be suspect.
So rather than accept the statement “that no two snow flakes are the same” one could suggest that evidence in support be offered... How many snow flakes were inspected and by whom to make this observation? Given that there are many snow flakes not inspected I find it curious that such a statement can firstly be made and secondly be universally accepted as a fact.
One could conclude that as physical laws dictate the formation of a snow flake that the same conditions will produce identical snow flakes...would we say no two helium atoms are the same I wonder.. Yet such a reasonable proposition has not been raised when the statement is made “no two snow flakes are the same”
It is of little consequence other than to draw attention to the human condition that it will demand absolute proof of some matters yet let others past without scrutiny.
When reading on cosmology it alarms me that such an approach can be found in many areas. Reading about background radiation I find similar approaches that although I notice it seems goes un noticed by folk one would expect to be absolutely critical of information that comes before them. It is very alarming but because of the dictates of the presentation of a “theory” calls for predictions any following analysis of data leans to fitting it to the theory.

Such an approach is letting us down

.
Big bang theory fits into this criticism

. It is most unfortunate that our view of our Universe must fit this model rather than minds kept open as to what other explanations the data may suggest.
Reading about background radiation tells me that all are convinced "no two snow flakes are the same" and from here they seek to establish the facts to suit the premise. Why is this so I ask and can only answer that humans like to be right about what they put forward and therefore find "the facts"suit their case.. (I do it myself I suspect

)
Data is being interrupted merely to support the theory and adjusted to suit the theory.
I feel that if such an approach was not universal we would learn more about this Universe we know so little about

.
Yes it is cloudy here so what do you do? Hang on Sun is out (showing) going to grab some

.
Alex

xelasnave · #2 20-03-2007, 10:09 AM

So my question is could it be possible that somewhere two snow flakes are the same?
alex

Karls48 (Karl) · #3 20-03-2007, 06:54 PM

There is one in serval hundreds million chances that two persons will have identical fingerprints. And there is one in serval billion chances that two persons will have identical DNA. Again I don’t know the sources of those claims, but it is often quoted in TV and detective kind of books. It is just a conceivable that there can be two identical snowflakes. I sometimes wander how the mathematicians come to these numbers. Ask them to calculate next draw Lotto numbers and they will tell you it is impossible. They would be dealing with random combinations of 48 numbers only, but they make prediction about random combinations of billions of possibilities

styleman333 · #4 20-03-2007, 07:04 PM

You guys got way way too much time on your hands . I think about stuff like bills , getting the kids to bed and work .
I dont think ive ever contemplated once in my life whether two snowflakes are the same ...

xelasnave · #5 20-03-2007, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karls48

There is one in serval hundreds million chances that two persons will have identical fingerprints. And there is one in serval billion chances that two persons will have identical DNA. Again I don’t know the sources of those claims, but it is often quoted in TV and detective kind of books. It is just a conceivable that there can be two identical snowflakes. I sometimes wander how the mathematicians come to these numbers. Ask them to calculate next draw Lotto numbers and they will tell you it is impossible. They would be dealing with random combinations of 48 numbers only, but they make prediction about random combinations of billions of possibilities

Thanks for considering the matter Karl I feel so many things are drawn from a relatively small sample when one considers the opportunity and although reasonable in the case of the possibilities raised by identical fingure prints or DNA still because one has not sampled all that there is to be sampled the "test" becomes a rule rather than a possibility. A poll is an extreme example where the views of perhaps millions of people are concluded from a sample of the views of a mere 1000 or 2000 people. I hope a lawer does not get hold of the "snow flake"thing to throw DNA evidence out of court.
Thanks again.
alex

xelasnave · #6 20-03-2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by styleman333

You guys got way way too much time on your hands . I think about stuff like bills , getting the kids to bed and work .
I dont think ive ever contemplated once in my life whether two snowflakes are the same ...

Perhaps an over simplification as how much time on ones hands is too much

. Still managed to think that up before I made a useful contribution in the role I was engaged in today... my way of surrendering slowly to the pressure facing me for the day..a day I have for that purpose completed..leaving a little free time for maybe a little thinking and reading

.

I am fortunate that being old I have become selective of what I let take my time..also I am not trusted with the little important things as unfortunately I overlook their importance and often forget to do them

.
Bills are taken care of by others because I dont like doing that sort of thing as with many other matters I find I simply do not like to do.
As to getting my daughter off to school I dont live at that address and only get to visit but any time she has free I am there for her and everything even iceinspace and astronomy takes second place to her need for a father and friend

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I enjoy thinking and having now the time to think a little but at 60 and being realistic about my life expectancy I really have very little time left on the planet certainly less than most folk

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The post was in an effort to entertain rather than make any point and I hope if only for a moment it did this for you and others..and maybe provide a different conversation point for ones next dinner party

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best wishes
alex

styleman333 · #7 21-03-2007, 06:47 AM

If i bring up the non similarities between snowflakes at a dinner party im gonna get a strange look off the one that must be obeyed and she'll be booking me in for evaluation on the monday lol
But good for you Alex , i as well as us all love your lateral thinking .....

Good stuff mate
Best wishes...

xelasnave · #8 21-03-2007, 07:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by styleman333

If i bring up the non similarities between snowflakes at a dinner party im gonna get a strange look off the one that must be obeyed and she'll be booking me in for evaluation on the monday lol
But good for you Alex , i as well as us all love your lateral thinking .....

Good stuff mate
Best wishes...

Thanks for what I will happily seize as a very nice compliment

.
Thinking about your original observation, as I will for days to come

, it occurred to me that the absence of TV provides time to think

. And not having anyone in my life that must be obeyed perhaps gives me an advantage or indeed a disadvantage

mmm must think about that also

... I dont know how most have the time to pay bills and ferry the kids as I am too busy thinking

.
Maybe to pay respect to the one that must be obeyed you could raise the matter in the context that you know of this poor old fella who without a wonderful lady to guide him has in effect lost it looking for identical snow flakes in temperatures that will see none .. work all information for your advantage and to access how lucky you really are

.
Thanks again
alex

shredder · #9 21-03-2007, 08:07 PM

Well I'll get in first...

No two snow flakes are the same. I dare you to prove me wrong and show me two snowflakes that are ;-)

M

xelasnave · #10 21-03-2007, 08:13 PM

OK just wait I am silly enough to go look..given the weather maybe we will get some snow.
alex

avandonk · #11 21-03-2007, 08:32 PM

Water or H2O is a very enigmatic compound. Without it life as we know is impossible. It is a solvent for more other elements and compounds than any other. The growth of ice crystals (snowflakes) depends on the conditions and the slightest variation of any variable will change the resultant morphology as the ice crystal growth is dendritic (branching) so leading to infinite variation.
Ice crystals do not follow the usual crystal growth rules such as salt (NaCl) for example.
The only rule for ice crystals is a quasi hexagonal packing of the water molecules.
I am going on memory not on Google or Wiki.
By the way freezing your body for later reviving is impossible as the ice crystals puncture every cell membrane in your body. Sorry Walt!

Bert

Gargoyle_Steve (Steve) · #12 21-03-2007, 10:58 PM

Alex I understand what you are saying - at least I think I understand what you are saying mate

and I must admit that some days even that feat seems astounding.

I will say 2 words straight up for why no 2 snowflakes do not appear to ever be the same : Chaos Theory.

In addition though I think there are 2 ways to look at that old "adage" .... one is as indicated above (thanks Shredder), I think that if you try and find 2 identical snowflakes you might search for a thousand lifetimes and still never find an identical pair. Therefore for all practical purposes "no 2 snowflakes are alike".

However.....

Even if the chance of finding 2 that are the same is a billion, billion, billion, billion, etc, etc, etc to 1 - even an infinitely small chance is still a chance, and in an almost infinite universe (latest update I've heard this week is 46 billion light years across - that's a lot of water and a lot of possible snowflakes) there is still therefore a potential chance of 2 snowflakes, somewhere, being the same.

Summing up:

In practice - no 2 snowflakes are the same.

In theory - it's possible, at an incredibly low possibility level.

(Douglas Adams fans fire up your Infinite Improbablility drive, we have snowflakes to check)

I hope this promotes some further deep thought. Carry on chaps.

venus (Lydia) · #13 22-03-2007, 05:53 AM

This is way too mathematical for me to figure but scientists seem to have made some steps ....here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6466129.stm

shredder · #14 22-03-2007, 08:16 AM

I was only poking fun before....

Actually I do believe there are two or more snowflakes alike. While avandonk is corrent in that it relates to the crystal structure (which is highly variable) there is no reason why two snow flakes couldn't be the same, therefore at some time there will be two snowflakes that are the same. I remember looking into this years ago and the odds are relatively low for this occuring (relatively) and so the old story is just that....

And before anyone asks, no I dont have proof in my ice box.

M

xelasnave · #15 22-03-2007, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by venus

This is way too mathematical for me to figure but scientists seem to have made some steps ....here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6466129.stm

Thank you Venus for posting that link

.

It gives me incite to why I can hold various conflicting emotional opinions about those fully engaged in mathematics..ranging from admiration of their ability to contempt for their stupidity

.

Physics is ruled by mathematics which does not always lead one to acceptable conclusions yet given the proof before one and the wondrous minds that present "the facts" provide no option but acceptance

.

It puzzles me how a theory can be proven to be so correct that it becomes a fact even in the absence of tangible proof

.
The theory of black holes for example... all forget that this animal was born on paper, lives on paper yet it has become "real" still remaining unfound. Oh I hear the cries but we can look to see that their influence is present even in our own galaxy. yes indeed

if one is looking for unicorns fully established as a possibility ïn theory" and then finds the outline of a foot print in the shape that a horse may leave does that entitle one to proclaim "the idea is correct for a unicorn walked upon this very spot".. all will say how crazy for you to say such

without thinking further about the human condition to which I point

.

But for me until you have a unicorn in your stable that I can pat I will not accept such unsupported ideas

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But there are black holes!!!.. how long ago were they born, how eagerly humans wished for their existence, how happy they were when they found "tell tale"signs of their presence, happy enough to proclaim them as fact it seems

..yet there may be other explanations of the evidence happily seized upon to pronounce the theory as correct

.

I say this is a premature conclusion based upon an expectation we were led to by a man playing with sums

. It is convenient that a black hole hides its existence and identification by the very theory that gave it existence

.

I think we could find and preserve two identical twin snow flakes before we conclusively prove the existence of a black hole

.

AND my point finally is simply this... all things can be imagined and reasonable reasons presented as to why they should exist in the Universe but just because humans believe something to be so does not mean it will in fact be a tangible part of the real Universe irrespective of the sums or evidence provided by those eagerly expecting to find the object they seek

.

A very thought provoking link Venus thanks again.

Alex

xelasnave · #16 22-03-2007, 09:22 AM

Very entertaining Bert

but you have just destroyed my plans for the future I had planned coming back one day to see if things got better but you worry me will the cell puncture thing..should not Walt (and a few others be told

)..
AND all please remember to pay your bills and get the kids out of bed

... I am very proud of myself for I have voted in the State elections set for next Saturday....usually I miss the fact that there is an election or forget to go on the day, they send me a letter asking why and to enclose a payment with my explanation while they consider my fate..I over look that also but when the letter comes from the Motor Traffic Dept saying my drivers licence has been cancelled because I did not pay the fine I stop thinking and act..most times

.. so by voting early Saturday will be mine to enjoy as I wish. AND although not with my daughter that day it isnt even a school day so how good is that?

alex

xelasnave · #17 22-03-2007, 10:38 AM

Steve said...
“ Alex I understand what you are saying - at least I think I understand what you are saying mate and I must admit that some days even that feat seems astounding”

I hope the problem is at your end as I try my best to communicate my thoughts not using words out of everyday use however I recognize that when I don’t review what I have typed the spelling errors and poor grammar must detract from my post

.

I would not be offended if you pointed this out as a specific. In fact I try not to be offended by anyone’s view of me as all observations are usually valid

.

I think you approached the matter with a balanced outlook and that shows wisdom in my view.
And remember this most everything I post is to provide a platform where others can have a chat and maybe entertain themselves whilst waiting for the clouds to clear.

All any of us can do is to contribute somehow, I see my contribution as offering alternatives and questions may provide others a chance for a friendly chat.. I am not against anything I am not for anything, I believe in everything yet accept very little and most times if I provide an opposing view it is simply because I feel acceptance of propositions occurs because of convenience and repetition of the proposition presented and life’s day to day pressures that allow little time for lengthy consideration of important (and unimportant issues)… If one looks out the selection of who will lead us both State and Federally and realize most will take more time choosing their next car than their next government you can understand my drift.
Thank you for your balanced contribution the "the chat"..
Alex

xelasnave · #18 22-03-2007, 10:50 AM

Shredder thanks for your contribution.
But that’s what we need most things are indeed “a joke” some very nice some cruel and evil. Most of what I post is very much to point out the joke that has been played upon us..
AND it is a joke finally that some will take me more seriously than I take myself

.
In fact the post came from the joke that a Japanese “Doctor” has played upon many people world wide as to his proposition that water contains a memory and that there be “good” ice crystals and bad ice crystals

.

A friend gave me his DVD to look at in the belief that I too would be converted to this way of thinking

.. Well the good doctor may be a Carleton

but the DVD started with the statement “that no two snow flakes are identical” that was the first point he made and I seek to destroy each and every point he made that offers some mystical credibility to his unbelievable claims

.

He presented ice crystals from “good water” which were nice and pretty and ice crystals from bad water that were deformed and ugly (by human assessment) … fair enough so far maybe but how anyone can take it past that point and accept by writing nice words and attaching it to the jar holding the water and produce pretty crystals and by attaching bad words produce ugly crystals

It is simply is a cruel joke to play upon people who must be missing part of their brain

.

Needless to say he discovered all this and has helped over 10,000 people mmm maybe they paid him a fee

..does that make it a joke or a crime I wonder

.. but these jokes are played upon people and although I find it funny in the extreme I find it sad that people can be parted from their cash with such ease.

Oh and there was a book..but is he in it for the money..no he is a hero taking two months of intensive research before the answers came..to bring tears to his eyes when the “break thru finally came”…

Still as big a joke as this is I find it difficult to laugh

.

When I see Mr Gore doing so much good to create an awareness that must prevail and find he has banked $46,000,000-00 I find it strange that most people fail to see the “funny” side. Add to that his mansion costs I believe $30,000-00 per annum in energy costs my smiles almost dies

When our Premier when asked about the Sydney rain and all he can do is to say... " but we still need a desalinator " again it is hard to enjoy the joke and laugh at others who do not see the humor

.
This where would we all be if we could not take a joke?

Alex

Gargoyle_Steve (Steve) · #19 22-03-2007, 08:24 PM

Yes Alex - my trying to "understand what you said" is a matter of my following your thought processes, so yes the problem is at my end of the phone line if you like!

I thought you may enjoy my input - my having 2 bob each way as it were - and adding a little fuel to the fire of debate.

May there be many more such thought provoking chats - in fact I have a topic in mind, I've been keeping it "on hold" for a couple of days for when we need something new.

DobDobDob (Ron) · #20 22-03-2007, 08:45 PM

Snowflakes could be the same given a large enough sampling, just as finger prints can be and also DNA.

What you get today is that there is a one in 6 billion chance of DNA being the same, not the statements from a year or two ago that stated, it was not possible to be the same.

I agree Alex, too many sweeping statements are made, that may have originated in fact but once they become popularised, grabbed by the masses, driven by the media, they become a pseudo immutable law