National Trust sees light on listing stars

[glenc (Glen)]

AN ASTROPHYSICIST from the University of Western Sydney has said stars should be preserved as part of our national identity, and the National Trust has agreed. When Sydney turns off its lights for Earth Hour next Saturday, the city's sky will be as clear as it was in 1900, Ragbir Bhathal said. The clarity will highlight what light pollution has done to our night sky. "We have talked so much about carbon emissions we've almost forgotten about the night sky," he said. Dr Bhathal, who is holding a stargazing session to coincide with Earth Hour, argued that stars form an important part of our national heritage. He said the number of stars visible from the central business district has fallen from 2000 to 100 in the past 100 years. "Because of the light from big buildings, the whole sky is polluted," he said. "I think in another 50 to 100 years the whole night sky will disappear like in London or Tokyo. We will lose our national sky heritage." Dr Bhathal suggested that stars should become a responsibility of the National Trust, as the appearance of the night sky is central to Australia's cultural identity. The conservation director of the NSW National Trust, Jacqui Goddard, agreed. She said wide expanses of sky were part of what defines Australia aesthetically. "The night sky is an important part of our heritage - that's why we have the Southern Cross on our flag," she said. Ms Goddard had not thought about conserving stars before Dr Bhathal's suggestion, but was interested in the possibility of a register to recognise their cultural importance. "We do list people on the Living National Treasures list," she said. "I don't know whether the stars would be added as such, but maybe the view to the stars from certain places. "We can't necessarily control the star, but that's not to say that our ability to see the star cannot be protected." Unlike most environmental degradation, light pollution is instantly reversible. "The night sky is a natural resource like any other, and we must preserve it," Geoffrey Wyatt, the manager of Sydney Observatory, said. "The Aboriginals have a long connection with the sky, and to damage that is the same as digging up Kakadu." Our generation has an absolute obligation to address the issue of climate change. If we don't act now, what can we say to our children, or their children? There is no single solution to the threat of global warming, and no one of us alone can bring about change. But there are many starting points for collective action, and I believe Earth Hour is one of those. When Sydney turns off its lights on March 31 we'll get a real understanding of how, together, we can make a difference. http://www.smh.com.au/news/environme...597882724.html

[Dujon]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

Next thing we find is that they'll legislate the colours green and cream for every telescope sold and owned.

"Hey, Mr Greenie", says I in a loud voice, "I'm about to add a brown dwarf to Sirius. Is that permissible or do I need to fill in a form for approval by the heritage commissions of each state and country?"

I love dark skies, just like everyone else on this site. Perhaps I've missed something but 'When Sydney turns off its lights on March 31'? That's the first I have heard of this rather strange plan. I'm sure that the power suppliers would love such a scheme when everyone turns back on their lights, signage, security lights, street lights, car headlights and other miscellanea.

It's the tall building over your back fence causing the problem? Really? What a load of rubbish.

[xelasnave]

mmm for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction .
John what fired you up here? do you dislike the Council or the people representing it? maybe the way they say what they say .
I for one would love all and anything to be done to reduce the light in Sydney skies and dam the profits of the "light" company. Light pollution is mostly un necessary so why not get behind any move to improve our lot as astronomers living in a city. One chap overseas said he can only see Venus from where he is, I think that is so sad. No stars at all.
The opperations of the council may be seen as intrusive but the idea behind their existence seems reasonable dont you think .
ALex

[Rob_K]

Great article Glen. I think that the cultural significance of the night sky goes way beyond contributing to our own national identity though. The night sky has been a source of fascination and curiosity to man since our ancient ancestors first gazed upwards. It has figured in the religions and mythologies of cultures and civilisations across the globe. Without the stars, what would have prompted our quest for knowledge about our place in the universe, and the nature of the universe. In modern times, this quest for knowledge has played a significant part in man’s rapid technological advancement.

Just imagine what it would be like on similar worlds to ours, stuck in close proximity to some of the vast bright nebulae we struggle to see in our scopes. Places where no night sky exists, where no inkling of being part of such a vast whole could possibly exist, where an incredibly myopic view of existence must be held by any life form advanced enough to crawl out of the swamp! Yet we are fast creating these places on earth - welcome to our megacities!

Cheers -

[xelasnave]

I agree Rob. I live some of the time these days in a dark site and find nothing better than to sit under the stars even without using optical aid it provides something I need a feeling of insignificance coupled with a recognition of importance somehow. At times you can feel as though you are standing on a sphere and at that point you become a part of everything..a feeling I can not describe really but it is magnificent, no booze, just the intoxication of somehow belonging to and being part of the Universe. I have suspected that it was perhaps by looking at the stars man started his journey to where he finds himself now.

[xelasnave]

Well the lights went out in the house but the streets lights are on.. probably with the rain the effect will be lost.. pity it seemed like a good idea at the time.... the sky is still aglow... because of rain and street lights. I can hear the kids next door the TV is off and the family is actually talking to each other... story time Dad.. they seem to have no idea all are confused..probably think the Libs got in or Labour are still in depending on who they vote for.
alex
alex

[Gargoyle_Steve (Steve)]

errr.... Alex I know that you're a man ahead of his time
but everyone else seems to be doing the lights off thing next Saturday - the 31st of March.

Mind you I am all for this concept, and Alex I applaud your efforts at getting in first, a little practicve never hurts anything.

I hope it may become a more frequent event, even once a week maybe so everyone can look up at the skies and see them the way they are meant to be! We spend so much time here talking about light pollution and how it ruins oru skies, and yet here is a very real way to possibly get the idea across to thousands - tens of thousands - more - other people.

http://earthhour.smh.com.au/what-is-earth-hour.html

(a brief paste...)
"Why is it only in Sydney?
We hope that Earth Hour can grow into a global campaign. To start this process, we have focused on one of Australia's, and the world's, iconic cities. If Earth Hour is a success in 2007, we hope that other cities, both in Australia and internationally, will join us in supporting Earth Hour.
Of course, we can all take small actions everyday to reduce our emissions. And we would be delighted if you can join us by turning off your lights for Earth Hour, regardless of where you live."


Vive la Earth Hour!

[xelasnave]

Thanks Steve not necessarily ahead of my time just simply another fool trying to find my way .
Tailwag Ron told me to leave the jokes to the professionals but I reckon I get more laughs then them given my stupidity ..
laughing at me not with me of course .
Still I grow through my mistakes and try to learn something from it all .

Well it was a mere blackout in this area what a relief .
Light pollution as it is said can be fixed over night so one hopes it will be that fast.
But I bet the only way we will see a dark sky is if "they" throw the switch

I have lost a little faith in things generally over the past couple of hours (see my very last comments re back ground radiation) .

AND I am happy that those who enjoy seeing me have a fall got to see it, the satisfaction that may bring to them may offset the upset I cause them by my brash ,rash and simplistic views on everything...

Thanks for showing me the light .
alex

[Dujon]

Originally Posted by glenc

. . . Dr Bhathal suggested that stars should become a responsibility of the National Trust . . .

Alex, I did get carried away didn't I. Sorry - no offence intended.

[xelasnave]

John dont you worry about that.
I was worried you had a bad experience with the Trust and figured we maybe could get to the bottom of it and make you feel better.
I dont like to see friends upset and only wanted to help.
When the lights went out last night ( a local black out it seems) just as I was cooking my meal I did not think it was a good idea I must say,... but I was ahead of myself ..
I certainly did not take offence but I was concerned for you.
alex

[xelasnave]

And Steve thinking about the once a week thing that is doable even once a month perhaps to coincide with the New Moon ... and the reason why it is doable ..election later in the year..even if Federal I can see the pollies could back it so as to ride on the public concern re climate change.
I keep meaning to make an email list of all in power to share my ideas with them .daily.. mmm the possitve publicity picture I could paint for them could move their hearts and minds..particulary as it is not going to dent the budget.
alex

[Argonavis (William)]

Originally Posted by Rob_K

.
The night sky has been a source of fascination and curiosity to man since our ancient ancestors first gazed upwards. It has figured in the religions and mythologies of cultures and civilisations across the globe.

That is because they were pre-industrial, and had not much to do after the Sun set. With the introduction of artificial illumination, most people don't give a toss for what's in the sky.

This is a non-trivial point, as if you are trying to sell light pollution reduction, you will not suceed with appeals to the glories of the night sky. You are part of an obscure minority.

You can only appeal to cost savings from lower wattage exterior lighting.

and I don't know how you stop exterior advertising lighting.

or stop multi-millionaires who want to put lasers across the sky from their vanity towers, like the one we have in Brisbane.

Originally Posted by Rob_K

Just imagine what it would be like on similar worlds to ours, stuck in close proximity to some of the vast bright nebulae we struggle to see in our scopes. Places where no night sky exists, where no inkling of being part of such a vast whole could possibly exist, where an incredibly myopic view of existence must be held by any life form advanced enough to crawl out of the swamp! Yet we are fast creating these places on earth - welcome to our megacities!

Rob. No not actually true. Quoting from:
http://www.badastronomy.com/media/in...lienskies.html

"...Although the nebula (M42) is bright enough to be seen by the unaided eye even from 1500 light years away...from up close it would be invisible! The problem is that the gas is almost transparent, what astronomers all "optically thin". ..

To us, far away, the nebula is bright because it's small. But if we get closer, it appears bigger, of course. But the total light doesn't change! As it gets bigger, the light from every square degree of it drops. ... From Earth, the nebula covers about 3/4 of a square degree. From a light year away, the nebula would fill the sky, 20,000 square degrees. That reduces the light by a factor of about 30,000! From a light year away, the nebula is practically invisible! ..."


Same with globular clusters. I can across a simulation of the appearance of the night sky for a hypothetical planet in a globular. Lots of 1st magnitude stars, like having Orions all over the sky, but it is NOT wall to wall stars.

[solissydney (Ken)]

In May 2006, Sydney Outdoor Lighting Improvement Soc. (SOLIS) asked the
Australian Department of Environment and Heritage for a information kit with a view to nominating the night sky for inclusion in the National Heritage List. The department would not send us a nomination kit replying that "As the night sky cannot be uniquely defined it cannot be described as a place and therefore would not be eligible for entry in the National List. In addition, section 324J of the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 provides only for the listing of places within the Australian jurisdiction or wholly or partly within a foreign country. The night sky do not fall within either of these categories and therefore could not be listed even if it could be defined as a place).
Ken Petersen
President

[xelasnave]

I bet the Air traffic acts consider the Australian Skies within Äustralian Jurisdiction. They are trying to head you off by not sending the forms...you can either demand them to do so or read what the act (rather the regulations with the act) requires and follow the requirements as set out in the regulations. It would be most unfortunate if the act has created a bodiy that in effect makes its own rules and can determine by itself forms etc.. many bodies think they are above the law whereas they are very much under the law. My father and I were discussing only yesterday the manner in which a body inperprets the law to suit themselves. Councils require a "parks and garden contribution" and cite a complex formulea whereas the act reffers to a contribution of land or money in lieu.. it is the Council who took it upon themselves to arrive at the formulea and preent it as law..it is not the law but their wish really.
Good on you Ken how novel to think of such an idea.
alex

[Rob_K]

Wow, thanks for the broadside Will! What side of the bed did you get out of this morning? The reason that I responded to this thread (and I am not a big poster) is that I work as a heritage consultant, and constantly review the myriad of historical influences on our cultural development. I felt that the view on the stars (night sky) as being integral to our own Australian identity was a bit narrow, and attempted to broaden it. As far as being part of an ‘obscure minority’ goes, what are you talking about? Nowhere did I suggest that a ‘cultural heritage’ approach would solve our energy wastage problems (duh-uh), and nowhere did I link my comments to the issues you raised (eg light pollution reduction, lasers etc). My comment was a simple statement of fact, that the night sky had played a significant role in our advancement as a species. Full stop.

Thanks very much for the information on the nebulae, but I really think you should have read the entire article in Bad Astronomy! My point that a myopic existence would prevail without external stimulus (night sky) remains valid, but of course now humankind doesn’t need dark skies because we get much better data from our space telescopes. Only the ‘obscure minority’ would care a toss what’s in the sky! My last throwaway line about the megacities you are welcome to crucify me for, but I was just trying to point out the paradox of it.

Anyway, hopefully further comments will remain on-topic, and I think I’ll stay away from General Chat!

Cheers -

[xelasnave]

Please don’t stay away from general chat Rob and please re read Will's post as reading it myself I don’t think he was having a go at you, in fact I read it that he was on your side.

I see his pointing out the reflection nebulae as an interesting fact of astronomy and not in any way to pull your whiskers.

This is a matter close to your heart as they say and maybe your passion for what you do caused you to see Will as having a shot and that is absolutely understandable, it is matter to be passionate about but I bet Will is on side, so please just take the time to re read his post and see if you can find it within you to see it the way I see it and no doubt the way Will intended.

Why am I such an expert because I have taken things the wrong way and many things I said have been received the wrong way but when sorted everyone realizes there was simply a communication problem.
You sound like a decent person and I think your future contributions are too valuable for me to sit back and let them walk out the door.
Best wishes
Alex

[fringe_dweller]

Argo Navis, thanks for that thought provoking info/link re nebulae ect up close - makes you think, wonder if the Gum neb/orion bubble complex ect. would be easier seen further away? reminds me of the stories on the huge but dim galaxy discovered in the '90's? that would loom large in out night skies if it was visible, and not sub-visual due to its low surface brightness due to low population of stars and star forming activity? anybody remember that one? any links? tia

I agree that generally most people dont give a toss about dark skies, in fact i think they hate them? well look at the evidence all around - it would suggest its so
altho I did pick up on a slight (temporary?) awakening/realisation and just a twinge of sadness at was is lost in the non astro public, due to comet mcnaught recently - we need more of these comets to complete the effect! and to get one in the NH now, and people will be ripe for this effect!
but alas with the coming solar powered LED streetlights, even the economical/enviromental impact angle might be lost?