Experimental nuclear fusion reactor.

glenc (Glen) · #1 22-11-2006, 03:51 AM

An international consortium has signed a formal agreement to build an experimental nuclear fusion reactor. The multi-billion-euro project known as Iter - or "the way" in Latin - will aim to produce energy from nuclear reactions like those that fuel the Sun.
If successful, it could provide energy that is clean and almost limitless.
The project, which will be based in France, follows years of talks between South Korea, Russia, China, the EU, the US, India and Japan.
If all goes well, officials will build a demonstration power plant before rolling out the technology to the world. Iter says electricity could be available on the grid within 30 years.

more at:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6165932.stm

AGarvin · #2 22-11-2006, 09:52 AM

Here's a link to the Iter homepage:

http://www.iter.org/a/index_nav_1.htm

30 years might be a bit ambitious, but then again, with the rate at which technology advances, who knows.

mickoking · #3 22-11-2006, 07:05 PM

And while other countries are funding and reserching this great energy source of the future what do the powers that be in Canberra do. Reccommend Nuclear (Fission) power. Very backward looking me thinks.

janoskiss (Steve H) · #4 22-11-2006, 07:09 PM

Go fusion!! It's a big challenge, a very tough nut to crack, but that's just the sort of thing that drives the brightest minds in science and engineering.

mickoking · #5 22-11-2006, 07:32 PM

The Chinese are doing a lot of work with fusion, working on their own and with a large joint project in France so that will be interesting to keep an eye on. I believe in my lifetime we will see a fully operating, profit making nuclear fusion reactor.

janoskiss (Steve H) · #6 22-11-2006, 07:43 PM

Sorry Micko, I was going to post something negative about fission but changed my mind halfway to say something positive about fusion instead but got confused along the way.

Fission is a backward step, not only historically, but also physically. Fusion of hydrogen into helium is more natural than breathing. It just so happens that it likes to take place in great big stars instead of tiny little planets like the Earth. Fission is nature's recoil after a big violent star-death and still has the smell of death on it.

xelasnave · #7 22-11-2006, 08:23 PM

It will prove unecconomic. Do the sums many have.. however as a hobby great mankind can feel as though he knows more or less about more and less but even now it is difficult to see it as economic. Expensive labour force, massive capital investments, added security required at many levels of production, use and disposal,... mmm just think of the insurance premiums and we know insurance can kill many enterprises. One can argue the toss on this one but go figure a return on capital and it wont work ..finally. Many investors will be burnt and probably many civillians, workers dogs cows etc etc but when everyone realises they have been sold a pup they wont buy anymore dogs. Does anyone know what power the Sun puts out per square metre... did not think so ..look it up you will get a shock... Australia has Solar in abundance not to mention tides and wind... weigh up the development costs of each. The next round of propagahndah is ready to hit . Mr Gore is coming to town to frighten us and make us feel guilty so guilty we wont worry a bit when the PM makes another extrodinary claim... that global warming is upon us lets eat the cake.. I know i am another idiot flapping his gums but look at the comments that will come from the pollies when Gore does his trip. I dont give a ratz but it irritates me to see inteligent folk fall for the guilt trip that they can do something if they eat the cake. You can look at my spelling critise my gamma but do read between the lines not mine theirs.
alex
alex

glenc (Glen) · #8 23-11-2006, 06:11 AM

Solar radiation is about 30 MJ per square m.

The man that won the ABC's New Inventors people's vote last year has an interesting setup.
http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au/

3 kW / 6,000 kWh* SunCube™ system

Model GGE3kW
AU$15,000 inc GST (For Australian customers who use GGE trained solar installers). This price may be reduced by a one time REC (Renewable Energy Credit) rebate of AU$2,250 and a one time PVRP (PhotoVoltaic Rebate Program) installation grant worth upto $4,000. Currently the SunCube system is not qualified for either rebate and the PVRP program is scheduled to finish end June 2007

xelasnave · #9 23-11-2006, 07:39 AM

Yes indeed, my point was simply that there is much more to be had than the old panels out the front of my place provide. I just have this thing about being presented one day with global warming and the next we need to eat cake. I see the dangers not in the wonderful minds that can bring such dreams to reality but worry that the people who believe everything they read has no hidden addgendah will be left to run the plants and dispose of the trash. Corporate greed tells me that disposal no matter how well regulated will see terrible things happen... I buck the buck and dont trust in human luck.
alex

Omaroo (Chris Malikoff) · #10 07-12-2006, 01:14 PM

An old family friend of ours, Dr Peter A Krug, was involved for may years on the Tokamak fusion experiments as a consulting plasma physicist. He's been working on this concept since the 80's and was a key designer of the magnetic bubble which contained the reactant and the laser system that fired off the whole process. Stating the obvious, it's no simple task otherwise it would be in common use by now. Heady stuff indeed.....

ving (David) · #11 07-12-2006, 01:19 PM

sounds great...

i just dont like the words "nuclear" and "experiment" side by side for some reason...

netwolf · #12 23-02-2007, 02:05 AM

As I recall from my uni days, a fusion reaction requires a hell of a lot of energy to bring two particles together. Hence the texts we studied discussed the use of a fission reactor to provide the energy to start he initial fusion reaction. This was put up as the most plausible way aside from very long linear accelerators, or centrifugal setups. India a country often touted as a third world nation as I recall has 3 Nuclear fission plants that run trouble free. The problem is one of proper management and waste disposal management. And as I understand it the waste is minimal when compared to coal power pollution. Its a wonder to me that in Australia there is a very anti fission sentiment. Properly sealed containers would keep the waste safe enough that you could sit on it, better yet one could store them underground. Thats no joke, but scientific fact as I understand it. I am not promoting fission for Australia, but i feel we go overboard in our anti sentiments towards it. The problem is long term waste disposal. Certainly given time scientist will come up with a faster way to recycle this waste. Alternatively Fusion is also an option but still needs much work to become economically efficient to be practical.

Regards

xelasnave · #13 23-02-2007, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by netwolf

As I recall from my uni days, a fusion reaction requires a hell of a lot of energy to bring two particles together. Hence the texts we studied discussed the use of a fission reactor to provide the energy to start he initial fusion reaction. This was put up as the most plausible way aside from very long linear accelerators, or centrifugal setups. India a country often touted as a third world nation as I recall has 3 Nuclear fission plants that run trouble free. The problem is one of proper management and waste disposal management. And as I understand it the waste is minimal when compared to coal power pollution. Its a wonder to me that in Australia there is a very anti fission sentiment. Properly sealed containers would keep the waste safe enough that you could sit on it, better yet one could store them underground. Thats no joke, but scientific fact as I understand it. I am not promoting fission for Australia, but i feel we go overboard in our anti sentiments towards it. The problem is long term waste disposal. Certainly given time scientist will come up with a faster way to recycle this waste. Alternatively Fusion is also an option but still needs much work to become economically efficient to be practical.

Regards

I still see the problem not matter where you store it properly but there will always be the slip ups, over sights, etc

.. I mean when you get all sort of things turnig up at a tip that should not be there dont you think that is the real problem

. Great minds can figure it out

.. decent people

but some one gets to do the dirty work

..hands on I mean,.the $10 an hour worker who does not understand really the dangerous material he handles.and unless you employ really good educated folk all the way down the line, and uncorruptable people to oversee the work there will be problems, it would be foolish to think accidents etc wont happen...and there will be those people in the chain .. imagine if you had Homer Simpson in charge of disposal not safety control

.
alex

acropolite (Phil) · #14 23-02-2007, 07:53 PM

Quote:

If all goes well, officials will build a demonstration power plant before rolling out the technology to the world. Iter says electricity could be available on the grid within 30 years.

I'l believe it if & when I see it, I can remember hearing the same sort of rhetoric for decades, somehow, it always seems to be just 30 years away.

avandonk · #15 23-02-2007, 09:04 PM

Fusion reactors even if they are possible are just as polluting as a fission reactor. Fusion reactor containment vessels need to be made of exotic metals to withstand the inherent neutron flux. At the end of twenty or thirty years the structure of the containment vessel deteriorates structurally due to the neutron flux. This vessel is now highly radioactive!
So then shut it down and build another? It is too dangerous to dismantle!

The only safe fusion reactor we can have is called the Sun!
Sorry!

Bert

xelasnave · #16 28-02-2007, 07:21 AM

Bert but I fear you are being negative the investigations still need to be made

.
Well one must admit readily that with all its problems nuclear fussion has a better chance of success than building something that can collect energy from the Sun and convert it into electricity as the green house gas generated by production of solar panels we are reminded must be taken into account, and the conclusion is arrived at, that making them is not worth consideration

.. This wonderful prospect of clean nuclear energy is within our grasp and it has been so close for so long we can’t give up ..can we?

. The formulae re conservation of energy will need adjustment of course as it can not be possible that such unlimited power needs unlimited power to contain it

..that just would not make sense would it..as if something as small as the Sun’s gravity can manage it so no doubt we can replicate better here on our planet

. And even with an attempt to suggest the odds are 1 in 100 of finding a solution to containment is perhaps is an understatement of the number of different opportunities we should investigate

.There must be something out there yet undiscovered that will contain this force we know for a fact is contained within our Sun. We should not limit the possible solutions to merely 1 in 100 lets extend the possible experiments to say 1000 before we admit even the possibility that there may be even more options

. Thank goodness the money wisely allocated to funding such solid research is not wasted on the development on yet to be tested solar energy collection, after all what are the chances of solar energy via collection panels working..er efficiently that is.. simply not worth wasting money on … and if solar panels could be made work just think of the extra green house gas the production of such panels would pump into our atmosphere

. Stupid to even consider such an option.. And the storage problem of electricity collected from the Sun is way beyond the capabilities of humans who can even contain the power of the Sun and adjust the laws of conservation of energy

.
Global warming is upon us and we humans are guilty of causing same and should accept the responsibility of our actions and investigate the only option that can save us.. the dream of clean nuclear fuel.. we have conclusive evidence to support this claim and every other claim that supports further allocation of funds to solving the immediate problem of a world destroyed by human’s use of fuel..any fuel, any fuel other than one enjoying a nuclear base

.
It is comforting to see that billions of dollars go to research on nuclear fussion as it could well be wasted on trying to revive windmills a power source history shows us simply does not work and applying modern materials and ideas to them will leave them as inefficient gathers of power… besides they are noisy and do not look nice

.
Are these people, pushing nuclear fussion, so stupid that they think we are so stupid or do they work on the basis that if you tell a lie often enough it will become the truth.
Well a lie is a lie even if no one remains who can call it such

.
Alex

Adrian-H · #17 16-03-2007, 10:20 AM

i think that this has potential

http://www.sandia.gov/media/z290.htm

DobDobDob (Ron) · #18 16-03-2007, 05:14 PM

It's all so amazingly intriguing and fascinating, I wish I was still here a hundred years from now to see all these ideas perfected and in everyday use

xelasnave · #19 16-03-2007, 07:22 PM

I would like to meet the bloke who built their thermometer it would be hard on the eyes marking off a couple of million degree marks

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And the bloke who built the clock to register those split seconds

.
Oh its easy to stand back and talk about stuff you know nothing about

I salute them for going for it and hang the expence something good will come from it

. I feel more confident now that I have thought long and hard about containment methods

alex

DobDobDob (Ron) · #20 16-03-2007, 07:46 PM

When I read your reply, I thought you had misspelled expense, until I looked up your version:

English

Noun

expence

( obsolete ) : alternative spelling for expense M. Le Page Du Pratz, History of Louisisana (PG), p. 47 I know it is no easy matter so to deepen or hollow the channel of a bar, that it may never after need clearing, and that the expences run high: but my zeal for promoting the advantage of this colony having prompted me to make reflections on those passes, or entrances of the Missisippi (sic) , ...