Tree Change Dreaming

[AstralTraveller (David)]

Let's suppose, for argument's sake, that you live in orange to red zone light pollution. Suppose further that it's cloudy more often than not (and raining right now). Suppose you dream of escape to the country to spend you retirement astronomising. Perhaps you plan to win the lotto. Perhaps that rich maiden aunt/uncle is looking a bit pale. Perhaps you are saving money. Perhaps you can't see it really happening but it's nice to dream. Perhaps you have actually done it.

Where would you go? What region? In town or on a property? But most importantly how would you chose? What services and facilities do you need? What can't you abide to be near? How do you judge the best overall location for astronomy? How do you balance astronomy vs other priorities? What are the other priorities?

It's roughly 20 minutes - 5 days a week - to work so I have time for pleasant musings. I reckon having a frequent clear skies is a 'must' but unless you want to live in dust you have to accept rain. When it is clear the seeing should be at least good and often very good. It seems to me that being close to a town with basic services such as decent food (especially fresh produce) and at least basic medical services (GP dentist) is pretty important. Being within easy range of specialist is also good (my aunt and uncle returned to Wollongong because they were spending too long travelling to the specialist). If you are in a small enough town and have a dark back yard the seeing might be acceptable but out of town will be better. Larger rural properties give more privacy but probably require more time and money for upkeep (weed spraying anyone?) Out of town you also have to consider what services (internet, water, power, garbage collection etc) you can do without.

I can't be the only one to consider such matters. What are your thoughts and have you found the perfect spot? I reckon I've seen a fair few suitable spots but I've yet to find nirvana. How are you going?

[RobF (Rob)]

Good thread David. I suspect most of those who are "astro addicted" day dream at every little hill we drive past when out in the country.

The reality of finding a balance between civilization and facilities versus going bush is tricky of course.

[geolindon (Lindon)]

Interesting questions David, some of my thoughts;

i already know that while in robust health at 60yo i can live off grid, 8 km in 4wd to the front gate then 10km to small village, 80km to groceries n doctor. my lawn mowers are cattle.

i'm on the coastal range in C.Qld its nice n dark but dewy n foggy/cloudy often.

i'm wondering if cfn can be used to, or would Robert, compile maps ranking areas on AA desirability re seeing/number of clear nights pa. the maps could then be overlain on one's personal requirements for proximity to services.

i understand A Wesley made moves along the lines you muse on.

regards, L

[xelasnave]

You have probably heard me speak of my situation many times but I will go over it and add some thoughts.
I got out of the rat race at fifty, had some land and built everything. Being out of town was never a problem and I learnt to live on the little I had.
Lost everything in a fire which extinguished any materialism I had left.
I lived so simply many folk would call it poverty but I did not get fat and was not wasteful.
I regret I did not go bush when twenty and instead of working for others wish I had spent my years building up my property. I was lucky cause I had a small income a d the la d was paid for.
I got into astronomy and went at it 24/7 if I was not observing or taking photos I was studying or building and was totally involved and happy as.
If you have a little cash there is land out there and you can live in a van and not suffer, expences are low, shop once or twice a month, make your beer, supply your own power and water grow some food, keep yabbies and fish and free range chooks.
Also there are owners who dont ask for rent if you simply look after the property.
For me it was a huge step going from businessman to peasant but after adjustement I was never happier.
You have time so you can build things fix things and buy and sell stuff.
Alex

[glend (Glen)]

While i admire Alex's achievement, for me reality of family expectations prevented my going too far out, which was my original intent six years ago when i left Sydney. Many of us have to compromise on our dream location to be able to get to the hospital to see our new grand child, or have access to a doctor, drive a couple of hours to see family or lunch with old friends, or simply to be able to get to a Bunnings once in a while. There are many areas two hours outside of the major cities that still offer dark skies, services and facilities, that do not cost a fortune. Going deep bush is a big transition, but easing out a couple of hours is a good compromise, that is often supported by family concerned about aging parent welfare. and you can still have your observatory.

[xelasnave]

The only reason I am back in the city is because my father needs me but because I have "lived the dream" coming back is ok.
I must say I enjoy having a fridge because I love cold milk.
But no sky there are trees for a start and its just not the same.
Cant play the guitar with the amp up full I also miss that.
Ironically I now need to go 800 klms for medical cause I dont drive so good in thecity so going North to see the doctor beats a drive to acouple of suburbs away.
Fortunately the freeway starts only a couple of klms away.
Alex

[wastro (Robert)]

Originally Posted by geolindon

i'm wondering if cfn can be used to, or would Robert, compile maps ranking areas on AA desirability re seeing/number of clear nights pa. the maps could then be overlain on one's personal requirements for proximity to services.

Interesting "Climate" maps of max/min temperature, rainfall, cloud, wind, etc over Australia are indeed planned for CFN early next year...

[JB80 (Jarrod)]

This is something my wife and I discuss on occasion and have come to the conclusion that if we were to make such a change it is probably better to do sooner rather than later, that said there are certain realities that mean we can't/shouldn't just drop everything now and head for the hills. Children for one thing.

Still we have a few ideas, the lotto win scenario would be nice and we would probably have a home in both Australia and France and maybe a holiday home on Crete.
More realistically however I believe I have found my little haven and my wife is seemingly on board with it or at least she is while it is still just a dream.

It would tick all of the boxes for astro although seeing may often be a concern. It has a unique, closed and vibrant eco system which would go down well with a love of nature and a place that the kids would get a lot out of. It would definitely be inspirational for my new burgeoning hobby of bonsai and whilst it may not please some it is a fisherman's dream.
Plus as it is an island you can live a very remote life but still never be too far of a drive from the main towns, schools and facilities. Definitely a place we can hopefully build our own home to.

The one concern would be making a living but we would come prepared and try and make as best of it as we can.

Anyway, this place is Kangaroo Island. It also ticks the box of being close enough but far enough away from family in Adelaide although not so great for family in France.
Either way the seed has been planted for future reference, hopefully it is a place we end up but if not then there are thousands of places that could work if we put our minds to it.

[strongmanmike (Michael)]

Having had plenty of experience with both astroimaging and visual observing from various locations in and around Canberra for over 30 years, both inner, outer suburban and semi rural to rural, including the construction of three observatories, I can say with some confidence that a rural property between 20km and 30km (in a straight line), from the civic centre of Canberra and pretty much in any direction, will provide the best of all worlds for an astronomer ie distance from neighbours, altitude (550m - 800m), dark skies and enough good seeing, all while still being around 30min drive from all major services, international airport, sport and cultural entertainment. If you stay away from river gulleys, fog shouldn't be too much of an issue either, Canberra is quite dry and very clean. It is the bush capital after all

I spent several years imaging from the Newcastle region, both inner rural (Kurri Kurri) and suburban and the sky contitions were quite inferior to Canberra, both in darkness of sky and quality of seeing as well as weather (cloud/rain).

The Canberra region is a good choice for a see/tree change venture, especially if you don't want to gamble with unknown sky conditions but wish to have everything you need still at your doorstep.

My 2c worth

Mike

[Nath2099]

I bought a house in Primrose Sands, just down the road from where the gentleman took the photo of the Aurora he posted the other day, for exactly this purpose! 2 more months, or one or two more years not sure yet, in Sydney, then I'm gone!

I'd be interested to know what Tassie, specifically 45 mins east of Hobart, is like for astronomy...?

[Wavytone]

Have thought about this for the past 20 years on and off. Even identified two localities that tick all the boxes - and have gone so far as to spend holidays there a few times to find out the pros and cons and talk to the locals.

Wife likes them both but has expressed a clear preference for one in particular.

But we're at least 8-10 years away from making the move.

Nirvana IMHO is the high country in NE Victoria near Bright.

[AussieTrooper (Ben)]

Moving to a proper black dark sky location is a bit of an unrealistic dream for me. My wife has flatly refused to move anywhere rural. I am currently in a red zone in inner Melbourne, my record unaided is M4.2 at zenith on a perfect night. Not great.
What we have agreed on though, is that we can move to a small town in rural Japan. I can go work as a ski tour guide in winter, and have the summers off. It's in the brown, with a 1000m high access via sealed road in the green zone just 20km away.

[clive milne]

For the keen, seeking the ultimate (with respect to seeing):

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal...ture02929.html

In the mean time, I have settled (figuratively speaking) on a site 300km North East of Perth, in the wheat belt. The nearest town (of 100 people) is 30km away.

When Peter Reid came over and visited a couple of years ago, he rated the seeing, transparency and sky brightness as being better than Connabarabran.

We planted 12,000 trees and understory 5 months ago.

Accommodation consists of a caravan, a couple of 40' sea containers, solar with batteries for power and enough capacity to run an air-conditioner in summer and a fridge year round, basic toilet, hang a water bag in the tree if you want a shower, most of the niceties were curb side collection (including a pot belly stove and a leather lounge suite picked up from the side of the road - gotta love the payment plan on freebies)

Austere, but it's marvellous to be up there and gutting when it's time to come home. Spending time there makes you realise how much of the trappings of modern life you don't actually need.

Local cops and townsfolk are a different breed from your average city slicker.

Still have to put a roof over the sea-tainers (with gutters) for the two big assed water tanks..

Might even be remote enough to avoid the zombie apocalypse/WW3, etc.

And it just occurred to me that there is a further blessing... it's a fairly dry area (250mm of rain a year) So no mosquitos.

[xelasnave]

That sounds terrific Clive
If you promise to be kind to them I can send you a couple of mozzies, they are all males so they dont bite.
Do you plan to live there full time?
Alex

[Tandum (Robin)]

http://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html

That might help and maybe this:

https://www.myhospitals.gov.au/browse-hospitals/nsw

I'm looking too.

[clive milne]

Originally Posted by xelasnave

That sounds terrific Clive
If you promise to be kind to them I can send you a couple of mozzies, they are all males so they dont bite.
Do you plan to live there full time?
Alex

Alex,
Yes, by all means, please send as many mosquitos as you can get your hands on.. preferably the females collected from around the the Bama river forrest..

address is
c/o Tony Abbot
181 Cocktractor st.
Canberra, ACT, 666


And yes, plan to live up there (in the wheat belt) ASAP.

[Wavytone]

Ben take your wife to Bright sometime. It is cappuccino city, fine dining, 90 wineries within 90 minutes drive, and everything you could possibly want if you don't need to work for a living.

There's a trout river running smack through the centre of town compete with a weir and swimming hole. In summer my wife spends the afternoon in a rubber tyre moored upstream under a shady tree, with a nice book.

And the whole area is simply gorgeous.

[clive milne]

Yep, Bright is a very special part of the country (irrespective of the time of year)

First time I visited there (as a kid) the local cinema was advertising this new fangled technology.. electric light projection. (That was back in 1970 iirc) Still.. I loved the place and wish it had been frozen in time.

The last time I went there (2002) the town had sadly lost a most of its warmth. The attitude of the local business owners might be gauged by attending one of the restaurants on the main street. For example, they seemed to expect compensation for the service of extracting a cork from a bottle (even one that you had brought to the table) proportional to a measure of gold (or vital organ) of a similar size to the cork extracted.

Still, a very pretty place, and I highly recommend (if you are doing the tourist bit) to do the walk to the summit of Mt Feathertop (2nd highest peak in Victoria) and arguably the most picturesque view from any grassy knoll in the country.

2c

[ausastronomer (John Bambury)]

I am already there. It's all about balance. Whilst I don't have perfect skies they are decent and everything else is just how it needs to be for Sue and I.

3 Months ago I moved from a 6 bdr house on a 1 acre block on the Western outskirts of Kiama (12,000 people) to a 3 bdr house on the northern outskirts of Shoalhaven Heads (3,000 people). Most of the people who live at the heads are older and go to bed fairly early.

I have:-

Mag 6 skies after 10pm 21.1 or 21.2 on the SQM
Good seeing and sometimes very good.
An 8 minute drive to work
A 400 metre walk to buy basic needs like bread milk butter etc
A 3 minute ride in the courtesy bus to get to the Heads Bowlo which has an excellent restaurant
A 2 minute drive to the Heads pub which has a beautiful beer garden overlooking the river.
A 2 minute drive to the beach (sth end of 7 mile beach) if I want to go fishing or have a surf.
A 2 minute drive to the river if I want to launch the boat and go fishing or waterskiing (and yes I can still ski very well at 57)
A 5 minute drive to 3 excellent wineries which all have excellent wines and excellent restaurants (Coolangatta, Crooked River and Two Figs)
A 15 minute drive to Nowra with a hospital and all the shops you could want.
Less than 2 hours from Sydney

A short drive to some very dark skies if I want to chase dim targets. However I am very happy to observe lunar, planets, double stars and brighter DSO's from home

It works well for me. Away from the coast isn't an option for me as I like my Saltwater activities too much.

Cheers
John B

[pmrid (Peter)]

Tree changing has many, many advantages and benefits. But there is another side to the coin. An acreage requires a fair bit of work to maintain. If you are going to be reasonably remote from light sources, you will find yourself having to buy more than a pocket-size block. And it will need to be fenced to keep out straying stock, slashed regularly to keep down fire risks and limit the habitats for nasties. You'll probably want to erect an observatory but also, some kind of colorbond shed to house your slasher, mower, etc and to provide you with basic camp facilities. You'll want to think about power and internet availability. Yes, you can do solar power - at a cost; and yes, you can use your smart phone for internet - if you are in the coverage footprint.
You should also think about security from fire, theft and the rest. There are mad, bad and just plain stupid people out there who would find any visible observatory/shed much too tempting to resist. Out of road visibilty is important and not just for the lights.
Keep a low visibility/profile for the sake of your safety and security.
A tree change ain't all beer and skittles.
Peter