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Old 10-11-2016, 12:11 AM
gary
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IEEE - Can Synthetic Inertia from Wind Power Stabilize Grids?

In an article in the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers (IEEE)
Spectrum Magazine, contributing editor Peter Fairley reports on how
Canadian power utility operators are using a technology called "synthetic
inertia" that can turn wind turbines from being "potential liabilities to
power grid stability into substantial contributors to it."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Fairley, IEEE
As renewable power displaces more and more coal, gas, and nuclear generation, electricity grids are losing the conventional power plants whose rotating masses have traditionally helped smooth over glitches in grid voltage and frequency. One solution is to keep old generators spinning in sync with the grid, even as the steam and gas turbines that once drove them are mothballed. Another emerging option will get a hearing next week at the 15th International Workshop on Large-Scale Integration of Wind Power in Vienna: synthetic inertia.

Synthetic inertia is achieved by reprogramming power inverters attached to wind turbines so that they emulate the behaviour of synchronized spinning masses.

Montréal-based Hydro-Québec TransÉnergie, which was the first grid operator to mandate this capability from wind farms, will be sharing some of its first data on how Québec's grid is responding to disruptive events such as powerline and power plant outages. “We have had a couple of events quite recently and have been able to see how much the inertia from the wind power plants was working,” says Noël Aubut, professional engineer for transmission system planning at Hydro-Québec.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Fairley, IEEE
Recent ride-through trouble in Australia appears to be an anomaly. Nine Australian wind farms did shut down during a series of storm-induced faults, that blacked-out the state of South Australia in September, and Australia's prime minister attacked renewable energy as a threat to energy security. However, an investigation by the Australian Energy Market Operator blamed errant wind farm control settings, and it says some operators have corrected them.

In fact, most wind and solar farms can do much more than just stick around during trouble. For example, most utility-scale installations—and even some residential rooftop solar systems—are designed to combat voltage sags on power grids. Their electronic inverters can detect brownouts and generate reactive power (AC whose current wave leads its voltage wave) to raise the grid voltage.

Synthetic inertia is about responded to crashing AC frequency, usually after the loss of a big power plant. When a big generator goes offline, it leaves the grid under-supplied. That will cause the AC frequency to fall.
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Old 10-11-2016, 07:13 AM
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thanks Gary - really interesting
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Old 10-11-2016, 08:32 AM
glend (Glen)
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Yes, the IEEE article mentioned the SA recent outage i see. Is synthetic inertia just another buzz word for the old fly wheels. I recall an incident in a big Telstra exchange many years ago, where a power system flywheel jumped its mount and ran through the bottom of the building causing great damage.
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Old 10-11-2016, 08:51 AM
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Yes thanks for posting Gary.
I was surprised as to how efficient a well designed flywheel is and how its ability to store energy is, as I recall and sorry for no referenced authority other than my most unreliable memory, to be superior to a battery.
What type of battery of course but the thought of a flywheel spinning away for an extended period and losing less energy than a battery really surprised me.
Their potential to run around and do damage had not occurred to me.

Alex
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Old 10-11-2016, 11:22 AM
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maybe the synthetic flywheel effect could be used to allow time for something like this to take up transient loads and keep the grid stable without any synchronous generators at all.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_Power_Station

guess lots of batteries would be better though - the sooner we go to grid connected household batteries and electric cars the better.
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Old 10-11-2016, 12:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Yes thanks for posting Gary.
I was surprised as to how efficient a well designed flywheel is and how its ability to store energy is, as I recall and sorry for no referenced authority other than my most unreliable memory, to be superior to a battery.
What type of battery of course but the thought of a flywheel spinning away for an extended period and losing less energy than a battery really surprised me.
Their potential to run around and do damage had not occurred to me.

Alex
Hi Alex,

The synthetic inertia systems on wind turbines discussed by the authors
don't employ a separate flywheel.

Instead they use the mechanical inertia of the wind turbine itself coupled
with control systems added to the power electronics.

By way of background, historically, power generation by steam turbines
uses synchronous generators. That is, the rotational speed of the generator
is synchronous with respect the (here in Australia) 50Hz alternating
current of the grid.

As wind turbine technology has evolved, rather than connect their generators
directly to the grid, the trend has been to employ power electronics that
go between its generator and the grid.

This has been made possible by huge advances in power electronics
over the past thirty or forty years.

For example, some systems employ double converters that convert the
AC from the wind generator to DC and another converter that converts
that DC back to (50Hz in Australia) AC which is synchronized with the
grid.

There are additional closed-loop control systems that feedback from the
grid back to the converters and to the turbine itself.

Power grid systems and power integrity on a grid is surprisingly complex.

Rather than there being just an alternating voltage waveform there is
also an alternating current waveform. Since power is the product of
voltage and current, on the one hand, ideally the two waveforms would be in
phase to deliver maximum power to a load. This is referred to as unity
power factor. When voltage and current is not in phase it is referred to
as reactive power. However, some amount of reactive power is required for
some motors to operate and reactive power plays an important role
in maintaining the voltage on the grid. It is a careful balancing act
between the amounts of normal power and reactive power on the grid.

Ideally the generators on the grid should be able to produce or
absorb reactive power to or from the grid itself.

So the synthetic inertia technology, which has been evolving in recent
years, is a combination of the inertial mass of the rotating machinery,
the power electronics conversions and the control systems used in
the feedback loops.

Control systems in (electrical) engineering is a complex area in itself with
deep roots in mathematics. That is also true literally as many control
systems utilize the mathematics of matrices of complex numbers
(electrical engineers love using complex numbers, that is, where the
square root of -1 is defined as the complex number "i" but electrical
engineers prefer to denote with the letter "j" because we already use "i" to
denote current).

We have had over 100 years experience in designing power distribution
systems using synchronous rotating machines. With the advent of
renewable power sources whose inherent generation schemes may
be asynchronous and even DC, there is less experience to draw upon
but many talented professionals are evolving the field quickly.

For example, the advances in semiconductors used in power electronics
continues to rapidly advance.

There was the famous debate between Edison and Tesla
on DC versus AC. Rotating machinery and passive transformers made
the obvious choice based on the technology available at the time.
Based on the technology available today, the debate would probably be
even harder fought if we were starting afresh.
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Old 10-11-2016, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post

Their potential to run around and do damage had not occurred to me.
ANY form of stored energy has the potential to do damage if the energy is released in an uncontrolled fashion.

Flywheels store energy as kinetic energy - so if there is some sort of mechanical failure, that energy has to go somewhere.

Batteries store electrical energy as chemical energy - short out a battery, and things can get pretty hot pretty quickly.

Fuel tanks store chemical energy - an uncontrolled release can be explosive.

Hydro-electric dams store vast amounts of energy as gravitational potential energy - if the turbine or penstock fails, the water flow can destroy the power station, and the homes of thousands of residents below the dam.
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Old 10-11-2016, 05:53 PM
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Thanks Gary for taking the time to post all that information.

There is a small wind turbine at the new place.
I have no idea what it produces but maybe 200 watts at 12 vlts.
It is set high and gets good wind.

Not putting that system together myself I feel a little intimidated by it where as my previous system I built and altered over a 20 year period.

But the big luxury was a 2 kva Genny, from Bunnings $750 that has key or promote start.
That unit one could only dream about once.
Runs a flash gaming computer and so far no problems.

I am mostly just down the road from you these days and think of you each time I go thru My K for a visit at Brooklyn.
Again thanks.
Alex
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Old 10-11-2016, 06:03 PM
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Hi Julian
Thanks for the run down.
I have learnt the hard way about energy release in a battery bank.
I left heavy leads connected to my battery bank laying on the ground.
Well whilst out my dogs rolled around on them and I came home to burnt cables, didn't ruin the battery as something must have burnt thru or one of the dogs had the sence to separate them, maybe not but I know Lassie would have, and lucky there was no fire.
Really lucky all round.

I am toying with adding a large water tank up the hill to be filled via solar and add a peltie wheel.
But I have not got around to working any figures out...they use a lot of water but another production unit would be good.
I need to measure the fall next time as a starting point.

Alex
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Old 11-11-2016, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julianh72 View Post
ANY form of stored energy has the potential to do damage if the energy is released in an uncontrolled fashion.

Flywheels store energy as kinetic energy - so if there is some sort of mechanical failure, that energy has to go somewhere.

Batteries store electrical energy as chemical energy - short out a battery, and things can get pretty hot pretty quickly.

Fuel tanks store chemical energy - an uncontrolled release can be explosive.

Hydro-electric dams store vast amounts of energy as gravitational potential energy - if the turbine or penstock fails, the water flow can destroy the power station, and the homes of thousands of residents below the dam.
can you provide an example of "something" that doesn't store energy?
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Old 11-11-2016, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eratosthenes View Post
can you provide an example of "something" that doesn't store energy?
No - but that's not my point.

Alex commented that the potential for flywheels "to run around and do damage had not occurred to me", and I was just making the point that ALL energy storage systems have the potential for destruction if the stored energy is released in an uncontrolled fashion. It's the quantity of stored energy that matters, rather than the mode of storage (although some storage systems are inherently safer / more controllable than others.)

It's probably helpful to think about how much useful energy is stored in a couple of common storage scenarios:

AA NiMH Rechargeable Battery: 2500 mA.hr x 1.2 volts = 11 kJ approx

Typical 12 volt Car Battery: 40 A.hr x 12 volt = 1.7 MJ (or 160 AA batteries)

Tesla Powerwall Mk II ("can power a two-bedroom home for a full day" according to the publicity material): 14 kW.hr = 50 MJ (equivalent to approx. 4700 AA rechargeable batteries or 30 car batteries)

Typical Car Fuel Tank: 60 litres @ 46.4 MJ/kg ~ 2100 MJ (approx. 200,000 x AA batteries, or 40 fully-charged Tesla Powerwalls - people tend to forget just how much energy we deal with every day when we drive around in our cars!)

Wivenhoe Pumped Storage Hydro Power Station: 2 x 250 MW x 10 hr = 18 TJ (1.6 billion AA batteries, or 350,000 Tesla Powerwalls, or 8,000 full car fuel tanks)

Typical Commercial Flywheel: 2 kW / 6 kW.hr / 100,000 rpm Flywheel UPS, e.g. as used in Telecomms UPS applications: 6 kW.hr = 22 MJ (2000 AA batteries, or 12 car batteries, or a bit less than half a Tesla Powerwall)
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Old 11-11-2016, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by julianh72 View Post
No - but that's not my point.

Alex commented that the potential for flywheels "to run around and do damage had not occurred to me", and I was just making the point that ALL energy storage systems have the potential for destruction if the stored energy is released in an uncontrolled fashion. It's the quantity of stored energy that matters, rather than the mode of storage (although some storage systems are inherently safer / more controllable than others.)

It's probably helpful to think about how much useful energy is stored in a couple of common storage scenarios:

AA NiMH Rechargeable Battery: 2500 mA.hr x 1.2 volts = 11 kJ approx

Typical 12 volt Car Battery: 40 A.hr x 12 volt = 1.7 MJ (or 160 AA batteries)

Tesla Powerwall Mk II ("can power a two-bedroom home for a full day" according to the publicity material): 14 kW.hr = 50 MJ (equivalent to approx. 4700 AA rechargeable batteries or 30 car batteries)

Typical Car Fuel Tank: 60 litres @ 46.4 MJ/kg ~ 2100 MJ (approx. 200,000 x AA batteries, or 40 fully-charged Tesla Powerwalls - people tend to forget just how much energy we deal with every day when we drive around in our cars!)

Wivenhoe Pumped Storage Hydro Power Station: 2 x 250 MW x 10 hr = 18 TJ (1.6 billion AA batteries, or 350,000 Tesla Powerwalls, or 8,000 full car fuel tanks)

Typical Commercial Flywheel: 2 kW / 6 kW.hr / 100,000 rpm Flywheel UPS, e.g. as used in Telecomms UPS applications: 6 kW.hr = 22 MJ (2000 AA batteries, or 12 car batteries, or a bit less than half a Tesla Powerwall)
...and yet a single rain drop at rest can potentially unleash about 9,000,000,000,000 Joules in energy
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Old 11-11-2016, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eratosthenes View Post
can you provide an example of "something" that doesn't store energy?
A flat battery.

Alex
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Old 11-11-2016, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eratosthenes View Post
...and yet a single rain drop at rest can potentially unleash about 9,000,000,000,000 Joules in energy
Interestingly - that's roughly the same amount of energy stored and then re-released by Wivenhoe Pumped Storage Hydro Power Station in each 24-hour cycle - but each day, it has to lift about 28 GL of water by 100 metres elevation to store a comparable amount of energy!

http://www.csenergy.com.au/content-(168)-wivenhoe.htm
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Old 13-11-2016, 09:22 PM
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Interestingly - that's roughly the same amount of energy stored and then re-released by Wivenhoe Pumped Storage Hydro Power Station in each 24-hour cycle - but each day, it has to lift about 28 GL of water by 100 metres elevation to store a comparable amount of energy!

http://www.csenergy.com.au/content-(168)-wivenhoe.htm
interesting....the energy required to lift 28 GL of water by 100m elevation is ~ (28,000,000,000 * 9.81 * 100) = 27.468 TJ of energy

How much of this energy is recovered when it is later unleashed and runs through the turbines?
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Old 14-11-2016, 03:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary View Post
There was the famous debate between Edison and Tesla
on DC versus AC. Rotating machinery and passive transformers made
the obvious choice based on the technology available at the time.
Based on the technology available today, the debate would probably be
even harder fought if we were starting afresh.
Yes, back then AC at the rotational speed of generators was the only way of efficiently distributing electrical energy. That is because it could be transformed up and down to higher or lower voltages with relatively low loss, hence overland transmission lines could be operated at much higher voltages than what households were supplied, commensurate with much lower currents (and transmission losses) than otherwise.

Modern alternative power generation methods necessarily decouple themselves from AC sync restraints. Solar power plants are free to generate DC, as wind farms will be free to generate AC at the frequency the wind dictates. Thanks to modern power electronics they can both feed into the grid at the required specs and, as the article shows, even to the benefit of the grid.

With the new speculative very high voltage DC distribution grids Edison may eventually triumph over Tesla, as much as it pains me to say that

From the control theory point of view I don't think there are many open questions in principle, however the economics of distributed power generation pose interesting information processing and legal questions, to which cryptographic distributed ledgers could provide an answer.
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Old 14-11-2016, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eratosthenes View Post
interesting....the energy required to lift 28 GL of water by 100m elevation is ~ (28,000,000,000 * 9.81 * 100) = 27.468 TJ of energy

How much of this energy is recovered when it is later unleashed and runs through the turbines?
Wivenhoe Pumped Storage Hydro Power Station is rated at 2 x 250 MW generating units x 10 hours generating time / 14 hours pumping time per 24-hour cycle. The recoverable energy is thus 5 GW.hr or about 18 TJ per 24 hour cycle, but the losses in pumping and pipeline friction etc mean that you need to expend more energy pumping the water uphill than you recover in the generating phase. The usable stored energy is "roughly the same" as the 9 TJ of theoretical fusion energy contained in a single raindrop.

I don't have the exact efficiency number for Wivenhoe, but the 250 MW generator / motor units, and the pump / turbine units, would have very similar electro-mechanical efficiency in both modes of operation; a typical 24-hour cycle is 14 hours of pumping followed by 10 hours of generating, giving an indicative overall "round-trip" efficiency of about 71%. Industry standard figures for large-scale pumped storage of 70% - 80% is typical, so the numbers stack up.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumped...droelectricity

Modern rechargeable battery technologies are more efficient (80% - 90%, say) but we don't have any electro-chemical battery technology that can scale to GW.hr capacity yet.

The point of pumped storage systems is to act as giant batteries, which can store "base load" scale energy whenever and wherever it is generated, and release it when it is needed. Wivenhoe was built to allow Queensland's coal-fired power stations to operate at maximum base load efficiency round-the-clock, "pumping electricity uphill" in the off-peak periods, and releasing it in peak demand periods, but the same concept works with solar and wind power, for example, which by their very nature are not necessarily generated at times of peak demand.
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Old 14-11-2016, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eratosthenes View Post
...and yet a single rain drop at rest can potentially unleash about 9,000,000,000,000 Joules in energy
Really care to do a back of an envelope calculation for the distance travelled (ignoring atmospheric resistance) in order for a typical rain drop (volume 0.05ml) to release 9x10^12 Joules.

Then try calculating the energy incorporating atmospheric resistance where the resultant force on the rain drop is no longer conservative.
This latter calculation will give a much more realistic value.

I leave it to you as an exercise.
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Old 14-11-2016, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
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Really care to do a back of an envelope calculation for the distance travelled (ignoring atmospheric resistance) in order for a typical rain drop (volume 0.05ml) to release 9x10^12 Joules.

Then try calculating the energy incorporating atmospheric resistance where the resultant force on the rain drop is no longer conservative.
This latter calculation will give a much more realistic value.

I leave it to you as an exercise.
I'm pretty sure Eratosthenes was talking about the potential fusion energy contained in a rain-drop, not the kinetic energy of a falling raindrop.

0.05 mL = 50 mg of water (i.e. 20 raindrops per gram).
Molecular weight of H2O is 18 (2 x Hydrogen = 2, 1 x Oxygen = 16), so a drop of rainwater contains about 2/18 x 50 mg = 5.5 mg of hydrogen.
About 0.7% of the mass of fusing hydrogen is converted to energy in the process of combining 4 hydrogen nuclei to make one helium nucleus.

E = mc^2 = (0.7% x 5.5E-6 kg) x 3E8 x 3E8 = 3.5 GJ per raindrop

(I guess Eratosthenes must have assumed slightly larger raindrops than 0.05 mL each to arrive at his 9 TJ figure!)

Last edited by julianh72; 14-11-2016 at 12:46 PM.
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Old 14-11-2016, 12:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by julianh72 View Post
I'm pretty sure Eratosthenes was talking about the potential fusion energy contained in a rain-drop, not the kinetic energy of a falling raindrop.

0.05 mL = 50 mg of water (i.e. 20 raindrops per gram).
Molecular weight of H2O is 18 (2 x Hydrogen = 2, 1 x Oxygen = 16), so a drop of rainwater contains about 2/18 x 50 mg = 5.5 mg of hydrogen.
About 0.7% of the mass of fusing hydrogen is converted to energy in the process of combining 4 hydrogen nuclei to make one helium nucleus.

E = mc^2 = (0.7% x 5.5E-6 kg) x 3E8 x 3E8 = 3.5 TJ per raindrop

(I guess Eratosthenes must have assumed slightly larger raindrops than 0.05 mL each to arrive at his 9 TJ figure!)
I doubt that very much given that his calculation for the energy to lift 28 Gl of water is based on the formula for gravitational potential energy
PE= mgh.
I'm pretty sure he had the same idea in mind with rain drops otherwise changing the subject from rest mass energy to gravitational potential energy midstream in a thread seems quite unusual to me.

But then again what do I know....
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