Looking to buy a first scope

[joeyjoejoe (David)]

Hello gang,
First time poster here so greetings to all.

Last Saturday I went to the Star Party at the Stockport Observatory and had an interesting time looking through several scopes before the cloud put a stop to things. A few members there recommended dobsonians as a good first scope/best bang for the buck.

I was planning to use my scope for looking at the planets (would like to see polar ice caps on Mars, Red spot on Jupiter, rings on Saturn) and hopefully some deeper space objects as well.

Over the weekend I've been doing plenty of reading and the dobsonian certainly gets a good rap on the various forums. I guess my favourite at the moment is the Orion Skyquest XT12G for $1999 but I've also noticed some unpowered dobs like Saxon 12 for $1500ish and GSO 12 for about $1100ish.

My concern is that if I buy a small scope and don't see quite see the object detail that I'm hoping for, I am likely to get disappointed and sell the scope quickly and upgrade. I was thinking it might be better to get something a little more powerful now so that I can grow into it and keep it for a long time. Also I don't mind lugging a bit of weight manual labour as I'm reasonably young and somewhat technically minded so don't mind a little bit of setup.

With all this in mind, what size dob would you recommend? Is a goto mount important at this stage? I do wonder wether it is annoying having to nudge the scope constantly or does it just become second nature? Is a collapsible/truss dob too much for a beginner?

[SkyWatch (Dean)]

Hi and welcome to the forum!
You can't go too far wrong with a 12" scope for deep sky and planets: it will serve you for many years; but it is a big telescope, so you want to make sure you are willing to lug it around in the car etc.
Go-to is great if your budget allows, and I see that Bintel have a very good special on the Orion XT12 at the moment...
If you want one that is a bit easier to move around, SkyWatcher make a collapsible go-to: and Shell-lap in Mile End have one in stock at present according to their web-site. Might be worth a look to get an idea of size at least (but their listed price is a lot more than the Bintel special!). Perhaps you could bargain a bit... (Andrews have this too, but at a much better price!)
(They did have a slightly used 16" go-to there for a good price too, but I think that is bit too much for a beginner!)
The other Adelaide shop where you can look at telescopes is Adelaide Optical in Grenfell St. Matthew Lovell at Telescopes and Astronomy is in Adelaide as well, but he operates from home with no show-room. Might be worth a call though.
Whoever you talk to, make sure you get a couple of eyepieces that will give you a range of magnifications so you can do planetary viewing as well as wide-field stuff. Everyone will give you different answers about eyepieces, but I think it is useful to have 3 to start with, looking at around say 50-80x, 100-120x and 200-250x.
Go-to is certainly not essential: I have used a home-made 12" dob for many years, and I am quite happy to push it around. It can be a bit of a pain at high power, but you do get used to it.
If you want to have a chat to a local, I am happy to talk- so just drop me a PM to get in touch.
All the best, and good luck!

- Dean

[dimithri86 (Dimithri)]

Hi,

I'll give you a summary of my experiences:
I have a 10inch solid tube dob. Which takes up my whole backseat, so its about the largest solid tube I could transport. It was about 150$ secondhand. When I am using a wide eye piece I dont have to nudge it too often (I dont even know because I do it subconsciously now, its easy to get to).

I don't have goto on my dob, I use a app called Skeye, which can be used in indirect mode, where its like a push-to goto, which I find works very well for me. It gets me very close to targets.

20mm GSO superview with camera adaptor 79$ which is what I use for deep sky objects. Great bang for buck.

7mm vixen + barlow for planets (might not not optimal...ill leave it to someone else to give you a good planetary recommendation).

I was intending this to be temporary scope till T outgrew it, but I've used it for about 2 years and still have a lot more to see with it.

[Somnium (Aidan)]

can i just say that i love the Simpsons reference in your name. i have nothing meaningful to contribute, just saw it and literally laughed

[Allan_L (Allan)]

Orion Skyquest XT12G for $1999

That is a great price for a great scope.
But check the dimensions will fit into your transporter (if you intend going to dark sites and/or star parties - recommended)

But be warned, it is not going to show you the details contained in those long multi exposure photos we all drool over.

[Rings of Saturn - definitely; GRS on Jupiter - probably, depending on your site and seeing conditions; Ice Caps on Mars - maybe stretching it except for when Mars and Earth are close and seeing conditions allow, maybe.
But you will see many DSO's of various types and varying degrees of details mostly without much colour - there are exceptions]

Collapsible scopes are easy (maybe even easier) to handle and setup.
Truss are a little more work, but not beyond you.

With the general rhetoric of "Aperture Rules" get the biggest scope you can afford AND EASILY SETUP and USE. The reader must calculate this for themselves based on several key determining factors.
Because the BEST scope for you is the Scope that you will use most often.

If in doubt, (or even just to see whats out there) get along to an observing night and talk to various owners about their scopes and their pros and cons.

But returning to my first thoughts: Thats is a great scope for a great price.

Good luck with your decision and new hobby.

[joeyjoejoe (David)]

Thanks a lot for the responses gents. It seems like a 12" solid tube might be the way to go for a first scope due to the simple, no fuss set-up. I drive an SUV with a fairly large storage space so it'll fit in there no problem.

Now as to brands. I must admit the Orion XT12g is my favourite but it's probably just out of my price range at this stage.

Realistically it's most likely going to be from either GSO, Bintel or Saxon. I like the 5 year warranty from Saxon and it uses Pyrex mirrors which I've read cool down faster than the BK7 which is used in GSO. But I can't find many reports on Saxon scopes. Are they an ok scope?

I have read some reports of the GSO mirrors being a bit hit & miss. Does anybody have recent experience with GSO stuff and do Bintel dobs (being rebadged GSO) suffer from the same problems?

p.s. well spotted Somnium

[raymo]

Saxons are made by Synta, and are almost identical to Skywatcher scopes,
which are also made by Synta, so reviews of SW scopes will tell you what you want to know about the equivalent Saxon models.
Incidentally, I would go for the collapsible every time. as Allan said, just as easy to set up, and take up less space, both when
stored, and in the car.
raymo

[barx1963 (Malcolm)]

Joe
I used a 12" GSO for quite a few years and was very happy with it and I know other who have GSO/Bintel scopes and generally the results are great for the $$$.

There is a lot of stuff about glass BK7 vs Pyrex. The thing with the glass is that cool down time is not the factor that should be worried about. The reason why Pyrex has often been preferred is that it has a lower Thermal Co-efficient of Expansion than other glass without being prohibitively expensive. There is a table on this page about half way down http://www.oldham-optical.co.uk/Glass.htm comparing different glass types and you will see that BK7 and Pyrex are nearly identical in thermal conductivity which is the factor affecting cool down times, the TCE is different which means that wide temperature variations will affect the figure of the mirror. I think that the quality of the figuring is going to have a much greater effect on the seeing quality than a different type of glass in a mass produced dob.

Malcolm

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

For a first scope I'd recommend an 8" f/6 Dob. Yes, you will want more aperture later but the 8" will still be very useful in the long term. It's the largest size that is still easy to move around by yourself in one piece. One does not think twice about getting it out should the occasion call for it, e.g., viewing a moon transit on Jup/Sat, showing off the Moon and planets to friends, guests, neighbours etc.

The 8" Dob really hits a sweet spot for usability and versatility. The 10" is a fair bit more effort and 12" and up is a major deal. The bigger scopes also need longer cool down periods - the 10" Skywatcher/Saxon is an exception if it still comes with a pyrex mirror.

I had a 12" for a while but replaced it with my current main scope, a 10" Saxon Dob (better optics, more portable). I still miss the convenience of my old GSO 8" f/6 (it was stolen years ago) and when finances allow I'll be buying one for everyday observing at home. It's big enough to reveal as much detail on planets and the Moon as the sky allows one to see on most nights.

[joeyjoejoe (David)]

Thanks janoskiss, barx1963 & raymo for the info. I went to Adelaide Optical today and had a look at the Skywatcher 10" collapsible dob on display. When collapsed it would easily fit in the rear space of my car without folding down the rear seats, and I felt comfortable handling that weight. I just wish they had a 12" on display that I could have compared size/weight to... Might have to check out Shell-Lap.

Now I've been thinking about finder scopes: Are the stock finder scopes that come supplied adequate or is it a good idea to upgrade to something like TELRAD or a planet finding app (looks like I can't use Skeye because I have an iPad)?

[raymo]

A Telrad is not an upgrade, it is just a different way to go. The 9x50s that come with SW scopes are fine. You might find you get a crick in the neck
using the straight through finder, and prefer a right angled one, but some people can't handle the different orientation of the sky in a right angled one.
Telrads or other brands of red dot finders are fine, but not a lot of good if the target is beyond naked eye visibility. Ideally, you would have both.
raymo

[barx1963 (Malcolm)]

David (sorry I may have called you joe in my other post!!)
Telrads and red dot finders (or green laser finders) IMHO are useful for getting you to a starting point for a star hop. For example if looking for NGC4755 (Jewell Box) you would use your red dot finder to get Mimosa in the field of you finder scope then use the finder scope (with help of a star chart) to hop to your target.
Personally I like basic red dot finders as they work fine and weigh almost nothing. A Telrad I found meant I had balance issues. Easily corrected if using a GSO dob as you can move the trunions up and down to adjust balance. The advantage i found with the Telrad is they do not need a dovetail adaptor so you can have one and your finder. Red Dot finders need a dovetail adaptor which is the same as your finder scope.

Malcolm

[croweater (Richard)]

David when I first got my telrad (about 20yrs ago) I thought it was the best thing and haven't changed my mind. Excellent in conjunction with finderscope . Quite often you won't even need the finderscope as object will be in low power view in main scope. As Malcolm said there are other good ones as well. Highly recommended to get one of some sort. Cheers, Richard

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

Telrad is an extremely useful addition to just about any push-to scope. Telrad + right-angle correct-image finder is my fave combo. But you can buy one at any time. There are also less expensive alternatives, "red dot" finders (though Telrad is the nicest 1x finder there is; Rigel quickfinder is pretty good too).

[grimsay (Iain)]

Hi David and welcome,

I was in the same boat not so long ago... got my 8" dob back in Jan and it's been great. I only recently picked up a Telrad but doing so sooner would've saved a lot of frustration.

I have a Telrad and finder scope now and find both essential. For a beginner the Telrad helps a great deal in minimising error when trying to find objects or targeting the star at the start of a path to an object.

Definitely recommended. Good luck,
Iain

[gaseous (Patrick)]

Hi David,

I've been in your situation before. Maybe it's just me, but constantly nudging my first 8" solid tube dob to keep objects in the field of view grew very tiresome in a big hurry (like, 5 minutes into its first night out I was turning the air blue with industrial-strength obscenities trying to track objects in a non-goto scope). Particularly painful when trying to entertain friends and family, especially at higher magnifications. Obviously budget plays a big role in the choice of a first scope, and much wiser heads than mine might argue for increased aperture over goto functionality, but I've found I get a lot more use and enjoyment out of my scope with the goto addition. As others have said, $1999 for a 12" goto dob is going to be hard to beat - I've done a bit of researching lately and haven't seen one for under $2k anywhere. The straight rod collapsible OTAs take about 13 seconds out of your life to set up, so I wouldn't let that concern you, and they'll save valuable space when lugging them in the car, as well as making the tube easier to pick up. If you get the larger aperture scope, you'll probably want the goto version sooner rather than later, and if you get the smaller aperture with goto, there's a good chance you'll want to get the larger aperture scope pretty soon too. The great thing about this hobby is that there'll always be something new to put on your telescope shopping/wish list! Good luck.

[joeyjoejoe (David)]

Originally Posted by gaseous

As others have said, $1999 for a 12" goto dob is going to be hard to beat - I've done a bit of researching lately and haven't seen one for under $2k anywhere. The straight rod collapsible OTAs take about 13 seconds out of your life to set up, so I wouldn't let that concern you, and they'll save valuable space when lugging them in the car, as well as making the tube easier to pick up.

Thanks Patrick for sharing your experience and everyone else for the info on finder scopes.

Boy, I did not realise that buying a first telescope would be so complex! It feels like my head is about to explode from all the various options. But at least I have it narrowed down to a dobsonian. Now I just need to figure out what size dob, collapsible or solid tube and go-to or manual.

LoL at the blue language - I actually can see myself doing much the same thing, so I guess go-to is a must for me. Go-to or manual question solved.

From what I have read these are the remaining contenders that meet my criteria:
10" Orion Skyquest $1649 vs 10" Skywatcher Black Diamond $2099
12" Orion Skyquest $1999 vs 12" Skywatcher Black Diamond $2889.

Well $2889 is more than I wanted to spend. I was budgeting for about $2000 or just slightly over, so that eliminates the 12" Skywatcher. That takes care of the cost question.

The only thing left is what size? Which is more important:
having a 2" bigger aperture but taking more room in the car and being more cumbersome to move(12" Orion Skyquest) or
losing 2" of aperture but gaining the convenience of easier storage/handling (10" Skywatcher Black Diamond or 10" Orion Skyquest). And out of those two is the collapsible feature really with an extra $450? Or would I be better of using that money towards eyepieces and other accessories?

[janoskiss (Steve H)]

It's not that complex. Just buy something capable and easy to use that won't break the bank. No matter what you get, your first scope is very unlikely to be your last unless it turns you off the hobby altogether (which can happen if you buy something too cumbersome to set up, use, and/or transport).

I don't mean to sound like a broken record but a scope that's easy to move about will get used a lot more often. I don't just mean transportation but ease of handling in the field: dodging trees, street lights etc. An 8" push-to Dob will set you back only small change compared to the goto scopes you mention and it's a capable enough instrument to knock the socks off anyone new to visual astronomy.

But if you have your heart set on a bigger goto dob the Orion 12" XTg for $1999 would be a great deal. Where did you get that price?? For the SW's Astro Pete has the best prices afaik (a lot less expensive than what you've been quoted), but courier from Brisbane will add to the cost. Haggle with your local dealer.

[joeyjoejoe (David)]

Thanks Steve. The price for the Orions were from Bintel. The Skywatcher prices I got from OzScopes. Although after reading your post I looked at AstroPetes and they were indeed much cheaper at $1745 for the 10" and $2295 for the 12". Then I looked at Andrews Communications - $1799 for 10" and $2299 for 12". Think I'll forget about OzScopes...

Unfortunately I can't haggle with my local dealer (Adelaide Optical) because when I talked to them on Saturday, they seemed to think the 10" SW go-to is not available. Perhaps I'll try Telescopes & Astronomy which StarWatch suggested earlier.

[madwayne (Wayne)]

Hi David

Good choice on the 12" goto, I have one and it is great. The one thing to consider is its physical size if you are going down the solid tube path. It is a big telescope and not that easy to manoeuvre if you are on the short side. I'm 195cm and can lift my ota by having a hand in the bottom and the one in the top, OTA separate from the base of course. You would need a trolley of some sort to move them as a complete unit unless you are built like a 30 year old Arnie .

Wayne