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Old 18-07-2006, 04:34 PM
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Faith vs Science - a rant on why is the Universe so big?

Slow day at work today! So...

I saw an interesting documentary (Putting God on trial - a 3 part series) that charted the uneasy relationship between scientists and christians evolved over the last millennia. It started by explaining that to scientists God was the Gap between the known and the unknown, with the unknown shrinking at an incredible rate. So God was minimised by science almost to oblivion over the last 500 years.

Episode 1 examined the perceived decreasing role of God in a modern society once scientists discovered the Big Bang (viewing it as the opposite of a black hole being formed). So on one hand you have scientists saying we don't want mysteries - we want to understand creation right back to the big bang and now we can, its just a black hole being formed in reverse. You don't need a God to throw the switch or even guide creation once you understand how quantum physics or membrane theory allows for creation events from nothing.

But then just when science has it neatly boxed a bigger, more powerful and challenging question is poised; why does intelligent life exists, why does our Universe permit intelligent life?

This is a hard one - because for all the fundamental laws of physics there are a few constants (about 17) that are exquisitely fine tuned to allow for life. If the mass of a proton was double or if an electron weighed 5% less, if the speed of light was slightly faster, if planck constant was 2% lower etc... intelligent life couldn't exist. So scientists and theoretical physicsts must ask why is our Universe so well tuned to allow for life. Well there are 3 main possibilities:

1. The fundamental constants of physics are what they are because of some equisite interdependence amongst all the laws of physics that we don't yet know that only allows these constants to have these particular values. The trouble with that is the fine tuning involved requires accuracy of the cosmological constant to a 10 ^ -120 a tuning - simply far beyond rational belief. There seems no credible reason or theory on the horizon on why this incredible accuracy is built into that one factor and nothing else.

2. There are an infinite multitude of Universes we can't observe and ours is just a permutation that can support intelligent life - so life has briefly developed. The hugh odds against this, about 10 ^ -120, don't matter when you have infinite possiblities to shop amongst. But scientists don't like infinities. Why are there infinite Universes and why can't we find a way to detect them? We have no theories to explore this yet.

3. The mind of God actually does exist and God actually did select our Specific Universe with its variables so well tuned to allow for our existence and henceforth God used science - not magic - to direct our existence and development.

It goes on to say science shows us how things operate but not why. It gives us understanding but no purpose. It was brilliant that some of the people at the fore-front of astronomy, quantum physics and theoretical physics were involved. Including some ordained bishops who had held Physics chairs for over 20 years.

The show worked so well because it wasn't inflammatory to anyone's views and treated all with respect. Here are top physicists who don't believe in God and want to see reality through science. But when they almost complete their goal they are left with a deeper more challenging puzzle which points to the existence of a far more powerful and subtle god than ever contained in the scriptures.

Finally a paradox. A few centuries ago christians believed the Earth was special. Creation orbited around it and everything was placed here for us. Then science showed we are a minute, unimportant dot in a vast ocean of space - totally inconsequential in location, size, position and any other descriptor you care to name. But comming full circle scientists themselves have realized a hidden truth that the faithful have always believed. The Universe only has meaning because we are here, created within it and able to comprehend it. In a way we define the Universe like nothing else and we elevate its importance as it provides for us in a virtuous circle. That is an amazing revelation for a scientist to say. We define the importance of the Universe. Without us it would have no meaning!

But for Christians an equally large, complex and significant question was left unasked. Why is the Universe so Big? With around 10 ^ 100 planets and suns - why has God made such a large place for us - what does he want us to eventually do in such a large playground?

Intriguing...
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Old 18-07-2006, 05:34 PM
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Quote, we define the importance of the universe, Unquote, to believe that we understand anything of any importance as it relates to the universe is so naive, sure we may know how some of the universe works and what makes it up but what it's purpose is if any is far beyond our imagining.
The more we learn about the cosmos only goes to reinforce in my opinion how little we do know and how unimportant we really are, sorry to the divine creationists amongst us, but we are here by chance, in my opinion.
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Old 18-07-2006, 05:54 PM
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I don't want to offend anyone so it's with some trepidation I buy into this discussion. If I believe anything, it is that I believe each individual is entitled to his/her own beliefs!

As an atheist I think I'm on the same page as Mick. The fantastic odds used in the show to describe how special our universe is can be constructed in many ways. The universe existed first, life came later. That doesn't make the universe special at all to me.

Life is what is special! Absolutely precious! Make the most of it and enjoy it! It's also too short! Take pleasure in learning to understand the universe - we have the tools to do that: scientific method. As for "why?"... who says there has to be a reason?

Al.
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Old 18-07-2006, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheeny
As for "why?"... who says there has to be a reason?
I'm on the same page here.
To me it seems quite egocentric to suggest that the universe somehow exists for us and designed for our benefit. We know nothing of what forms of life may exist in environments mankind may never get to visit or study.
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Old 18-07-2006, 07:17 PM
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Faith v Science, gutsy thread For me it is Faith and science, As a Buddhist and a fan of Science. My view is the same as the Dalai Lama's that if science dissproves something in Buddhism we must accept the scientific reality. Buddhist's don't believe in a creator God anyway. As for the reality of the Universe, nobody knows, we can only speculate using the best scientific evidence. I do find it compelling, however that if the parameters for the charge of an electron were off by only a tiny amount life (even vaguely as we know it) would be impossable.
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Old 18-07-2006, 08:09 PM
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Here is one creationist who is not offended by comments made here, and hopefully will not offend either.

Quote:
3. The mind of God actually does exist and God actually did select our Specific Universe with its variables so well tuned to allow for our existence and henceforth God used science - not magic - to direct our existence and development.
I see science hasn't made a great deal of progress over the milenia.
Man has from the eartliest times been trying to create God after his own image. Now science has finally caught up with 'primative' man: deigner god no less. errr ahhh, I don't suggest He used magic BTW.

I think it requires as much faith for the atheist to believe as he does, as it takes for a theist to believe as he does. Science will never either prove or disprove the existance of God, but true science will allways depend heavily on order and repeatability, not chaos, not random selection, and not chance events.
cheers,
Doug
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Old 18-07-2006, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sheeny
As for "why?"... who says there has to be a reason?.
Ah... The big Q.

If there is a reason, we probably woudn't like the answer anyway!. The easy way out is to return with another question like "Why Not?".
Whether our existence is a chance occurance or not, or the work of ID, it seems to me that life is an open ended book!
"Why Not?, Let's give life a go and see what happens. And that might as well apply for the rest of the universe as well".
"Why make the universe so big?". "Because it can be done" said one Atom to another.

Or consider...
We are able to observe so much of our surroundings and it's ever changing processes. We find this both fascinating and amusing. If you belive in ID, this could all be part of the greatest reallity show ever! Better then the Trueman Show. Top marks to the producer!


If this is a giant open ended book, then there is still plenty of time to pose new questions.
We always under estimate Time.
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Old 18-07-2006, 09:46 PM
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Personally I thought the show was excellent, as it showed the progression of how the faith versus science creationist debate has progressed over 200 years.

I'll go on record saying personally I hate intelligent design, and call it a psuedo-science of the worst ilk and see if it has to be taught, teach it as one of humankinds 5,000 active faith systems, not as a science!

My own personal beliefs include:

1. Faith is an area where scientific proof can't go
2. Faith may be behaviour that is genetically encoded
3. Science can't give a purpose to the Universe, faith attempts this
4. Faith that dismisses scientific process and evidence is risky
5. Any faith system that tries to reduce a transcedent being into mortal framework is borrowing trouble
6. Creation has an infinite buried in it somewhere, the candidates more fully include:

i) Infinite size - the universe is open, disconnected and varied enough for intelligent life to exist somewhere.

Trouble - Hubble shift and expansion of space shows circumstance that within our Hubble sphere points to a creation event 13.8 billion years ago, which makes creating a infinite Universe in a finite time exotically hard to justify.

2. Infinite time - say a bouncing universe endlessly cycling through big bang then big crunch, possibly with different univseral constants each cycles until intelligent life evolves.

Trouble - All our physics (presuming a finite universe) points to an increasingly rapidly expanding universe, making the likihood of a big fade, rather than a big crunch, far more credible unless once again you go all exotic on your theories of what is the fundamental fabric of reality.

3. Infinite Luck - The mix was simply right first time by chance.

Trouble - Imaging walking out your door and finding the winning lottery tick on your doorstep, every day, for a million years. Imagine a tornado hitting an airplane junkyard full or parts and by chance when it passes leaving behind a full assembled and fulled and serviced Boeing 747. Well the odds for what we have today are alot longer than that.

4. Infinite God - well yeah, uber scientist God existing within the planes of M-theory space cooks up a new universe on a new plane of existence - ours.

Trouble - Why? This is about as exotic as you can get. Did god create man or man create god to fulfil some need to avoid calling it unknowable or random luck?

* * * * *

By the way I do see our existence defining the Universe. The chances of intelligent life spotanteously forming so as to be able to ponder the amazing system that is the Universe and our species itself is perhaps the defining event and achievement of the Universe itself!

PS

I'll try and dig up the stats on the chances for intelligent life existing anywhere with the Universe and the factors that must be present for it to happen. It reasons what must be available and its chances. The odds are around 10 ^ 42 to 1 against there being any intelligent life in a Universe with only 10 ^ 26 stars that have existed for 14 billion years.

Growing up I thought there would be intelligent life out there somewhere (go SETI) but a look at the factors that have to be present in a system for higher and intelligent life to exist is incredibly revealling.

http://www.konkyo.org/english/seti.html

Astronomical Parameters Related to Life Supportability on a Planet
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Old 18-07-2006, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by g__day
The Universe only has meaning because we are here, created within it and able to comprehend it.
This is an intriguing thread indeed g__day!

The above quote appears to be mixing science with philosophy. As astronomers delve deeper into celestial objects with better equipment, we learn more. We know the evolutionary process which stars undergo and why they undergo such changes (as an example). So we know what happens and why it happens.

Does this then constitute a meaning? Just because we have an HR diagram in our hot little hands, does that automatically require stellar evolution to have a meaning? To my mind at least, it simply means it happens.

You can go back to the old "Does a falling tree make a sound if no one is there to hear it?" Does the very presence of our being in the forest "create" the sound, or give it meaning? Would not forest dwellers run from the sound of a timber giant creaking and crashing through the forest without our presence? Or would they simply stand around munching on a juicy leaf waiting to be splattered all over the forest floor because we were not there to give the sound of a crashing tree meaning?

The other query that comes to mind concerns the lack of a control or at the least, another view point. On our planet, there is no other life form with which we can communicate sufficiently to discuss scientific or philosophic conundra. Because of this one eyed outlook, we then query vast natural forces at work and put an anthropocentric spin to our observations.

If there was another race with whom we could compare notes, then we might stop to consider the point of view "there is no meaning".

This thread brings to mind my thread concerning the letter I got from a couple of Grade 7 students. One of their questions was "What is the purpose of having stars?". Now that is a very anthropocentric question if ever there was one!

The Universe is simply there. Put a meaning to it if you wish, but if you do are you not raising our species to ultra lofty heights? To ascribe a meaning to all the wonders of the Universe (regardless of them being known or unknown) and then to give that meaning relevance to human kind....wow..that beggars belief.

Peter.
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Old 18-07-2006, 10:17 PM
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What is obvious to me, is not obvious to you chaps and vise versa.
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Old 18-07-2006, 10:37 PM
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Years ago after 9 / 11 I raised this question on www.able2know.com and it went for 26 pages. The best thing that came out of it was this award winning recipe from Frank Apasia, which I share with you:

A recipe for G:


Pasta Fagioli


1/3 lb. Salt pork finely diced (if the salt pork has a skin attached, cut it off first)
1 Medium Onion, thinly sliced
2 -3 cloves of garlic, finely chopped
Two celery stalks diced (split each stalk in half lengthwise -- and then dice into half inch pieces)
1 16 oz. can white or red kidney beans
1 35 oz. can whole Italian Plum tomatoes -- squashed as you would for a pasta sauce.
3 8oz. cans tomato sauce (not paste)
1/3 pound ground beef
1/3 pound Italian sausage crumbled (casing removed)
(In a frying pan, fry the sausage until almost brown -- add the ground beef and fry until both are browned, reserve)
1/3 stick of pepperoni diced (slice the pepperoni stick in half lengthwise and then cut into 1/2 inch pieces.)
Tbsp of Oregano (actually, to taste)
Dash of red pepper or hot sauce (optional)

1 lb. Medium Shell macaroni.


In a soup pot or Dutch oven (I prefer the Dutch oven), render the diced salt pork over slow heat until its oils are released. (Adding a couple tbsps. of olive oil helps this process) (If the salt pork had skin attached—put the whole detached skin into the pot – and leave in there until the cooking is over. Remove and eat separately if you like skin. It is delicious!)

Saute the onions in the olive oil/rendered salt pork (do not remove the pieces of fried salt pork.)

You want to saute the onions until they start to brown at the edges. As you see the onions get their first hint of brown -- add the garlic and continue the saute for another two minutes.

Add the diced celery and beans (do not drain) --- continue to cook over medium low heat for three minutes - stirring occasionally.

Add tomatoes, tomato sauce, oregano -- continue to cook for three more minutes - stirring occasionally..

Add ground beef, sausage mixture, diced pepperoni, and hot stuff (if you desire) – bring to a simmer - lower heat 'til just simmering and simmer for 15 minutes -stirring occasionally.

(All cooking to be done without a cover.)

In a separate operation -- best done during that last few minutes of cooking -- cook the shells in slightly salted, boiling water -- leaving them al dente. Do not overcook—they will continue to cook after integration with the tomato mixture.

When the shells are cooked and drained, put half of them into a large, deep bowl and ladle several scoops of the tomato mixture over them. Put in plenty of sauce -- it should look almost like a thick soup. Let it sit for five minutes to integrate. (You'll do the same for the other half of the shells -- as the first serving gets used up.)

On the table, you should have crusty Italian or French bread. Another bread option is to take some sliced Italian round loaf and toast several pieces. A bowl of grated Romano cheese is a must.

Some people don't like the mixture too thick -- so a bit of water added to thin it down is fine. I prefer to use a bit of the water the shells were cooked in – and always reserve a cup or two of it. (Be sure the water was only slightly salted!) A thinning done with a bit of red wine ain't bad either.


Halved black olives added as you add the tomatoes works fine. Anchovies added as you add the tomatoes are great also. A bit of diced green bell pepper works. Using a can of chick peas (garbanzos) in place of the kidney beans is a nice touch. And some people like pasta other than shells -- give any pasta a try.

* * * *

Peter

Back on subject. We, with higher intelligence, give meaning to things, its part of what we do. This scales all the way up to the Universe itself. The Universe would still be magnificent beyond words were we to never have existed. But our being here, sentient and capable of pondering our precious existence makes it oh so special.

Whether you have a faith or not, whether it concides with science or not, the Universe and us in it is a pretty amazing thing. From the science perspective alone its insanely incredibile that we exist at all. I've studied this for quite some time, and quite some angles. I think it is actually justified, and not horribly conceited to consider potentially we are a key, not incidential part of the Universe, and somewhere buried deep is a purpose or sense of mission for this vehicle of existence and us in it. I just ponder (from my personal faith and science standpoint) what all this is about!
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Old 21-07-2006, 04:19 PM
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If we are special we had better do something to make sure we are not involved in a "world extinction event". If there is any meaning to our species we had better address that issue. If there be a God hten we can thank him for giving us the insite to realise such events occur. Noaks Ark but this time for the planet. The prophesy that we go to heaven means that we are to leave this planet for another .... yes there is meaning in it all but I think the meaning is personal we each see a different outcome based on our belief. It is wonderful that we are of a species that enjoys such power.
alex
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Old 22-07-2006, 03:01 PM
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Methinks that to much cloud cover is geting to everyone. This topic seems to crop up all the time. We dont know it all and we never will. However this gap should not be claimed as the reason for faith. Faith is not about filling a gap for human understanding.
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Old 22-07-2006, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Faith is not about filling a gap for human understanding.
What would you say faith is about then?


you're right there is tooo much cloud cover.
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Old 22-07-2006, 03:58 PM
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"However this gap should not be claimed as the reason for faith. Faith is not about filling a gap for human understanding."
I spent sometime thinking about what you have said here as it never struck me that such was not the case, and I am not disagreeing but accepting the meaning of your words.
One could be forgiven to think this way if you dont have faith. If one lives without faith or belief you will find yourself asking why when I dont have this or need this in my life others find it so necessary. From that point one of the possible reasons that comes to my mind certainly is this faith is the result of a search for understanding or meaning of life. It seems to me on a matter so important (as accepting you are here as the result of a decision made by God to create all for us) one would have had to think long and hard about the meaning of life its purpose , our purpose ...otherwise how could you make an informed decision that a faith in God is the way to go. Yes it is cloudy but I think it is wonderful to be able to consider such grand thoughts and have a place to air them and discover others views. So for someone not familar with how faith works I find it interesting that you feel it is not related to filling a gap in human understanding. I suppose you have faith or not it arrives with out explanation..I simply dont know and dont understand its concept clearly sometimes.
Does faith mean a belief that it is all as it should be and that there is a reason for your very being, that provides an assurance that all of this is there for us but with out us knowing what our purpose is at all?
As to knowing it all you are so right ..I have been actively engaged in finding out everything I can about certain subjects for over two years and its like I am going backwards I know five fold the information I started with but the more I learn, the more I read, the more I realise that I can never get near taking in the Human bank of accumulated knowledge and yet even all that is a small fraction of all that there is to know and understand.
In that situation I can see why one could give up and say it is all in the hands of a creator because that is the quick and easy answer.
I hope I have not offended anyone by suggesting we are not the only ones as I expect that would be not in line with most religious interpretation. It is an opinion , my opinion, and that does not make it right so please do not take offence. I respect all people and their opinions.
alex
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Old 22-07-2006, 03:59 PM
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sorry Doug I didnot realise you were there.
alex
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Old 22-07-2006, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
I hope I have not offended anyone by suggesting we are not the only ones as I expect that would be not in line with most religious interpretation. It is an opinion , my opinion, and that does not make it right so please do not take offence. I respect all people and their opinions.
I don't have a problem either way.
As a creationist, my thinking runs somewhat like this: If life is found on planet 'X' it is there because it was put there. If life is not found on planet 'X' it is because it was not put there, but that can not be used as proof that life is unique to planet Earth, just as any life found on Planet 'X' could not be used as proof that God is not. Other problems such as might there have been a naughty Adam and Eve on planet 'X', the end of the age etc. are just not my problem.

Cheers,
Doug
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Old 22-07-2006, 04:45 PM
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I like to extend the observable Universe to the concept, that, as we are each an observer we are each the very centre of one particular observable Universe...each of us therefore enjoy our own personal Universe. As such we can each place in it what we wish so long we dont upset a neighbouring Universe.
To me I dont see any conflict if one suggests there is life elsewhere but I expect that it may not amuse all.
The lastest "dimention" I noticed for the Universe (and I though there was no limit on size) was 200,000,000,000 light years, another was 160,000,000,000 light years.. we can not comprehend the size, we can not comprehend the number of gallaxies, the number of stars, the number of planets... if we are it and one could be certain no other form of life exsists, or has or will, I dont know what I would do.. I mean if that were the case the impact of that as being an absolute fact would be more than I could bear... I think I would probably toddle off to church and think it thru.
AND if you think about it, well if I was God, I would have a few "pets" and "proto types" I mean I am only a human and I have 3 dogs. It would make sence to have many life forms all over one would think.
But if we are it we should be colonizing other planets as a duty and all human resources should be directed so.
Not only is it cloudy here but I am at the end of my daughters birthday (8 yesterday) party, my mind is hungry for stimulation so if you think I have gone over board (more than usual ) thats it. Living alone the last week with no radio it was all a bit of a day.
alex
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Old 22-07-2006, 04:55 PM
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I believe I was created three minutes ago by an all knowing creature for his amusement. Thats Faith. This is as valid as any other Religion!

I think I will methodically and logically work out how everything works in such a way that it is all testable. Thats Science.

Don't stop asking questions. But don't confuse blind ignorance and fruitless hope for any real answers.

If I have offended anybody I really meant to.

Bert
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Old 22-07-2006, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
I believe I was created three minutes ago by an all knowing creature for his amusement. Thats Faith. This is as valid as any other Religion!
3 minutes ago? That must be the religeon of time dilation.
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