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Old 14-07-2014, 09:09 AM
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Carbon Trading

Lets not get into a fight re is it happening man made etc. Lets assume the worst and maybe science is raising concerns that need to be addressed. Having near having a stroke seeing Clive and Al toghter..heros or hypocritits.. together praising suggesting carbon trading I must say I am sckeptical that it is their world or our world they seek to save. Is carbon trading valid or is it like health insurance an unnecessary add on (in my view)where money goes to structure that merely manage cash flow with the associated
sticky finger syndrom..Big executive seem to profit ..is their contribution worth their million dollar pay roles. Does advocacy by two guys with huge carbon foot print encourage you or just make you feel somehow conned. Can carbon trading do more than creat another commodity exchange. Can it change behaviour or is it time to ban cars over 2000cc for example ban motor sports legislate agaimst black roofs...whatever is valid but it turns will pricing to benefit a trading culture do anything ..I qurstion both Clive and Al what do you own use and what is your foot print..if it is so huge why should I believe you have anything but personal benefit for yourselves or others in front of mind.

Last edited by xelasnave; 14-07-2014 at 09:35 AM. Reason: many
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Old 14-07-2014, 09:25 AM
casstony
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Having trouble interpreting the Romulan but we're always being conned by the rich and powerful in more ways than most realize. I suspect Clive's current objective is to gain as much popularity as possible in order to get the maximum number of seats next election.
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Old 14-07-2014, 10:05 AM
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Sorry Tony about the code translation for any of my posts..it is my fault and I appologise . I am not flash at the best of times but blaming the limitation of this magic fone in not the right thing to do. I swore not to chat on the net but I loveIIS and often like the last week or simply cant help myself and blat something.. Because I feel lonely sometimes and I dont have many real friends.. Only two who are not virtual...so I am sorry for all those things. Thank you for your input I think you are correct also It is politics I guess and Clive must gain cudos hanging around with a man dripping in past and present power. Regards alex
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Old 14-07-2014, 06:12 PM
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tlgerdes (Trevor)
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My issue with carbon trading or any tax similar is
1) that it only hurts the little guys.
2) needs to be global, so no one can take advantage of it.

Business will not absorb the costs, they will only amortise it into their cost base and pass it through the system. So if it is not global, and globally policed, then all we do is create an unfair playing field for foreign entities to usurp local entities.

Just adding a "tax" to imports to compensate also doesn't do anything either, except make things more expensive for us. It doesn't change bad practice.
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Old 14-07-2014, 07:10 PM
noeyedeer (Matt)
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I see it more as a trade off with developing countries with first world ones. we pay a tax or trade emissions with countries like China and Brazil and India to benifit ourselves with trade schemes and such.

brazils beef trade and total annihilation of the amazon is more of a concern to me then any tax our government can impose. I'd prefer a tax to save the amazon where we pay brazillian beef farmers to stop clearing land for their practice ..

the world is over populated and I don't think it can cope any more with any type of money imposed tax, action is what is needed .. nations spend too much on killing everything then to protect it ..

my 2 cents on carbon tax and trading ..
matt
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Old 14-07-2014, 07:30 PM
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Good find Hans. But is it a bad thing. He may get cash but sounds like the trees are worth more standing than cut down.
There will be many folk getting rich and that means we pay..nothing new here.
I hope they pay me for my 200 acre carbon sink..er anyone want to rent a tree.. In teality trees are not worth much. I have not priced mine but I would day maybe 60 bucks each..maybe little more or less but they are not for sale at anyprice..be nice to be paid for yheir carbon take up..mmm how much do they take up..must do some math
Taking carbon out is a big part of it cause realistically we will as a planrt use more and more..Everyone is getting rich buying cars appliances. How many new power stations 600 or so for China and India an approximation..but they are not pulling them down..more humans more demand.. Greed over need is the issue..me 85 watt panel 7 inch TV 1200 cc car I am putting in not taking out via not letting go of my trres. I am of the viee we have a problem but those with solutions dont care for amything other than how they can profit..thats what humans do..nothing nee here either.
alex.

Last edited by xelasnave; 14-07-2014 at 07:34 PM. Reason: it wont edit tex moves i cant see it
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Old 14-07-2014, 08:13 PM
el_draco (Rom)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
I swore not to chat on the net but I loveIIS and often like the last week or simply cant help myself and blat something.. Because I feel lonely sometimes and I dont have many real friends.. Only two who are not virtual...so I am sorry for all those things.Regards alex
You have a lot to say that is worth listening to, Alex The thing I like most about IIS is that there are lots of people with lots of opinions and whilst I may not agree with some of them, they are generally worth considering.
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Old 14-07-2014, 08:23 PM
el_draco (Rom)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
Can carbon trading do more than creat another commodity exchange. Can it change behaviour or is it time to ban cars over 2000cc for example ban motor sports legislate agaimst black roofs...whatever is valid but it turns will pricing to benefit a trading culture do anything ..I qurstion both Clive and Al what do you own use and what is your foot print..if it is so huge why should I believe you have anything but personal benefit for yourselves or others in front of mind.

I suspect that Al Gore would justify his higher Carbon foot print as a necessity to spread the word and to a point i would agree. However, I can't see any way that Palmer could have credibility while he reaps the benefit s of his huge mining assets

As for banning motor sports and powerful cars, the vested interest argument usually wins. Why should I stop it if everyone else keeps driving powerful cars, flying in planes and buying carbon intensive products? Its the argument that Abbott used to attack the Carbon Tax. "Our competitors aren't doing it, so why should we?" I try to implement it at home and have a fight on my hands.

As always, if we want change, it's a waste of time doing it from the top down; we need to work from the bottom up. Carbon itself is not the real issue anyhow. The real problem is overpopulation and the demand for consumption of ever greater amounts of resources to stop the deck of cards collapsing..... but who is gonna tell everyone else to stop breeding?
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Old 14-07-2014, 08:45 PM
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Thank you for your encouragement and kindness Rom. Poor Tony you have in your sites I fear. The fact is I believe is the rulerin this case Tony probably has little real control. If he ignores the folk holding his string he would be gone..so are we subject to his world view or some hidden legion of powerful men. Me thinks there are smart powerful folk who control the outcome liberal or labour both held by strings leading to ..I have it ..back to the aliens..they control us..so clear now. alex
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Old 14-07-2014, 09:31 PM
noeyedeer (Matt)
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the v8 super car series run on that eco fuel and have so for a few years to promote its integrity. car racing isn't the problem, people are the problem
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Old 14-07-2014, 09:41 PM
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mmm people come from babies..I propose a baby trading program. Or corporations taxed on the number of humans they service....alex
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Old 14-07-2014, 09:44 PM
noeyedeer (Matt)
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they can make cars that can run from sugar cane bi products but the bit oil industries don't want a bar of it just like solar energy in the 60s .. if we converted then big companies would miss out that's why it was shunned and kept under wraps.

governments revolve around money .. and business .. its corrupt and always will be .. go back to no tax and everyone fending for themself .. no government handouts .. you work to get money .. no tax because you policed and taught yourself in the community.. etc

matt
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  #13  
Old 14-07-2014, 09:48 PM
noeyedeer (Matt)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xelasnave View Post
mmm people come from babies..I propose a baby trading program. Or corporations taxed on the number of humans they service....alex
babies just mean more money from the government .. there's no incentive to stop growth

I'm guessing politicians haven't played civilisation or sim city ever
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Old 14-07-2014, 09:52 PM
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No the government is here to protect the people the aliens would get us if not for the government. I trust the government they are good I can not live without the government beware of subversives government is good
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Old 14-07-2014, 10:00 PM
noeyedeer (Matt)
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I'd prefer aliens than the government least they know intergalactic transport and other cool things ..

looking back through evolution .. it seems humans are the aliens.

edit : we havnt evolved .. we just evovle other elements. are autistic kids our next leap forward. people like Stephen hawkings and such. are "normal people" like you and I rejects of a more knowledgeable world .. who knows ..
matt

Last edited by noeyedeer; 14-07-2014 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 15-07-2014, 03:07 AM
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its easy to see the bad side and there certainly s a bad side. If I had not left the system I would be dead. Stephen Hawking has been my hero thru my recent cricis. I kept saying to myself..if he can do it with so little even if I lose my legs I am still far better off than he is..And with the world it coulf be worse..it could be no one caresand no one tries to right the erongd or point to the things we need to fix in other worfs the simple fact we can complain is part of our salvation.. bad is out thetr but so is good..good people stand up and pften flatyened but their efforts count. While in hospital I know I have made a difference simply by encouragement to those who lost hope..my hope wad topped up by wondetful folk on this site. Dont give in dont hate Tpny or his side they try to do good and try are not perfect..the folk before them were not petfect but we can observe and help with input at the smallest level. The more good we see and emcourage the better bad will always be with us it is not the enemy the enemy is dispair hayred and losing hope..lead by example folk admire hope happiness and faith.
Wonderful to chat with you I can ser you have good in your heart dont worry the human world will only get betyer cause we do learn and the champions are slways standing up to help.
Alec
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Old 15-07-2014, 11:52 PM
noeyedeer (Matt)
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I see where you're coming from but yet I must disagree with the outcome of it. if our government removes a carbon tax, yet we still pay the same amount for energy in the bills, then they havnt fone squat for us or the environment.
it's a shame but the liberals are so off the charts with promoting business we really need a new government that will cater for all aspects of humanity not just a select few.

again I will pay a tax if it helps other countries curb their environmental impact. it's not about growth but our effect on the environment.

why don't shopping centres have solar power and rain water tanks and stuff? it's too expensive! every new home built should have solar and tanks .. but they don't. I dunno it's a non win situation especially compared to the global market

matt
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  #18  
Old 16-07-2014, 04:34 AM
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And your views are to some degree valid Matt. You are one of many seeing a better future. It is even better that you believe you have the answers and or can see a solution. That is my point. Politics is about many things but finially it is indeed money. Anyidea you suggest will cost someone something. That is when it will be on the line. It is then you have to convince the public it is worth it and have someone pay the bill. Utopa is not easy to build because someone has to pay. The rich dont want to and the poor cant afford to pay..So we dont get far.
Personally I think any action comes from a very strange route.. Carbon tax or trading is mere pressure when something rather drastic is called for.. If we do something others must do it and failure to fall in means war to make all comply. Otherwise it is pointless one could argue.. Well now We have another champion in the mix advocating such extreme action that lesser responces seem more rational...do you seemypoint clearer. All very hairey fairey whemn considering Carbon tax or alternatives but my little idea create a new political mltion to consider and it only exists here as a seed.
Still dont hate the opposition of your politics dont wasye energy that way..hate produces zip..understanding and patience to determine how to be victorious is where all energy should be focused.
Your interest and passion will have impact and that is good.
best wishes alex
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Old 16-07-2014, 05:09 AM
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Trading or tax whatever raises revenue but the revenue in my viee should go to action and action must focus upon removing the carbon we say is too much..how...trees trees and more trees ..reduce cutting them down increase the rate for growing them. I understand trees evolved when co two was approx three times current levels so trees can handle the deand I make..I think science supports me.. trees get the carbon they need for growth exclusively from co two ...so if you produce co two grow trees to absorbe your personal output..I got mine covered hopefully. Personal responsibility is hard to do but not immpossible and hopefully sets an example and somy trees are not for sale..alex
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Old 16-07-2014, 05:10 AM
Renato1 (Renato)
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Carbon Trading - things may change, but it is unlikely to become a widespread activity so long as the climate refuses to follow the script.

See attached least squares regression of RSS satellite data set.
Regards,
Renato



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