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Old 18-09-2013, 06:31 AM
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cybereye (Mario)
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What, no Big Bang?!

Hi all.

I've just read this interesting article - "Has the Big Bang Theory been Busted?"

I'm sure glad I did my cosmology course before I read this - it was hard enough as it was without adding extra dimensions!!!

Cheers,
Mario
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Old 18-09-2013, 07:22 AM
Barrykgerdes
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I am glad to see some are questioning the creation from a big bang. I have always believed that the "big bang" is only an event that happens in an infinite universe regularly. Too many beliefs in a finite universe created by a "big bang" always fail when we ask "what is outside". However I also think that this will be too controversial a subject for a thread.

Barry
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Old 18-09-2013, 07:51 AM
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Germans! Zay take somesing complicated unt make it even MORE complicated...ya?

Sometime, someone is gonna have to apply the KISS principle to cosmology.
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Old 18-09-2013, 08:08 AM
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KISS and cosmology... impossible. For one, how can the human mind handle an infinite dimensional plane? How can something go on to infinity in every direction and time, and where did this seeming nothingness come from/how? (more importantly, WHY!).

To say there is a finite universe/cosmos implies there is an end. And beyond that end is....??????

Controversial, only if you start bringing in other ancient myths
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Old 18-09-2013, 09:21 AM
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Thanks Mario, I think !

In case you were confused - this clears it all up !
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1309.1487v1.pdf
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Old 18-09-2013, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
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Thanks Mario, I think !

In case you were confused - this clears it all up !
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1309.1487v1.pdf
Ahh, of course, it all makes sense now...
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  #7  
Old 18-09-2013, 09:38 AM
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A key point of the BBT is that there isn't an "outside."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes View Post
Too many beliefs in a finite universe created by a "big bang" always fail when we ask "what is outside".
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Old 18-09-2013, 10:45 AM
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A key point of the BBT is that there isn't an "outside."
That is why it is suspect. The bounded human mind cannot understand infinity. If you can accept it you can solve other problems. If you cannot you cannot progress to the next stage. We then only need to solve how to make a + and a - by splitting nothing and then we can solve all. forget the existing theories.

Barry
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  #9  
Old 18-09-2013, 10:48 AM
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If that's true I'll have to revise my CV…

The other Big Bang Theory goes into season 7 soon

Cheers
Steffen.
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Old 18-09-2013, 11:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes View Post
That is why it is suspect. The bounded human mind cannot understand infinity. If you can accept it you can solve other problems. If you cannot you cannot progress to the next stage. We then only need to solve how to make a + and a - by splitting nothing and then we can solve all. forget the existing theories.

Barry
What is the alternative to a Big Bang universe, an infinite steady state universe. Therefore you are no better off with the alternative.

Do you struggle with understanding the displacement and velocity of an object, or calculating the length of an arc?
Yet these characteristics are calculated by summing an infinite number of infinitesimally small quantities to give a finite answer.
Its called using calculus.

Mathematicians and physicists are only concerned when infinities turn up in the calculations which is a sure sign the theory is wrong or needs refinement but the concept of infinity iself is easily comprehended when seen as mathematical or physical limit.

Regards

Steven
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Old 18-09-2013, 12:42 PM
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Sorry Steven if my concept of infinity is different to yours so be it. I do not want to argue about it.

Mathematics uses other ways to solve problems using indefinable numbers. Calculus is one way supposedly invented by Newton to prove a point.

I am not a mathematician nor a scientist. I never studied either at school but still managed to pass all my exams without formal study. Science and maths periods were a chance for me to pursue other interests and still keep ahead of the class.

Barry
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Old 18-09-2013, 01:36 PM
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Barry,

Here is an example of how one deals with infinity which ultimately is based on a physical interpretation and isn't buried in a maze of obscure mathematics.

It is relevant to cosmology.
The curvature or flatness on the surface of a sphere equals the inverse square of its radius.

For a sphere of radius 1, the curvature is 1.
For a sphere of radius 10, the curvature is 0.01.
For a sphere of radius 100, the curvature 0.0001.
For a sphere of radius 1000, the curvature is 0.000001.

As the radius increases the surface becomes flatter and flatter.

We can make a general statement.
As the radius approaches infinity the curvature approaches 0.

Hence an infinitely large sphere has a flat surface.

When a sphere is described by its curvature its far easier to "visualize" an infinitely large sphere as simply being a flat surface.

One doesn't have to worry about what a sphere with an infinite radius looks like.

In cosmology the 2-D surface on a 3-D sphere is replaced with a 3-D spatial universe in a higher dimensional space.

Regards

Steven
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Old 18-09-2013, 03:33 PM
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The other Big Bang Theory goes into season 7 soon
No doubt Sheldon will be devastated by the news.
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Old 18-09-2013, 05:16 PM
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The article in question is a perfect example of confusion and misuse of terminology - whoever wrote it for news.com, he/she hasn't got a clue of what he/she is writing about.
Then again, even journalists have to earn their everyday bread..
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Old 18-09-2013, 05:36 PM
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If you want a brief explanation of infinity it is here in the form of a doco.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtMwAUaftSU


The big bang is not an explosion in time and space. It is the expansion that creates time and space. It is more of the whimper you hear when the ignorant are burnt at the stake for being heretics!

Bert
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  #16  
Old 18-09-2013, 05:50 PM
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Catalyst recently aired a special 'Custom Universe - finetuned for us?' http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/vodcast/

I found parts of that show really hard to comprehend. The article seems to have touched on a couple of points mentioned by some of the people interviewed during that show.

It would be great if the answers to some of the big questions could be solved in my lifetime. Even if they were, the experts would then have to find a way to explain it so that it all made sense.
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  #17  
Old 18-09-2013, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LewisM View Post
To say there is a finite universe/cosmos implies there is an end. And beyond that end is....??????
Lewis,

No it does not - consider the simple sphere, its surface has no beginning and no end and yet it is finite. And this only requires 3 dimensions....

Regards

John
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  #18  
Old 18-09-2013, 07:47 PM
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To quote Marvin the Martian,

"Where's the Earth shattering kaboom? There's supposed to be an Earth shattering kaboom!"

DT
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  #19  
Old 18-09-2013, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
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Lewis,

No it does not - consider the simple sphere, its surface has no beginning and no end and yet it is finite. And this only requires 3 dimensions....

Regards

John
Exactly right, but in simple 2 dimensions (where we slice the sphere into a circle) it indeed WOULD have a centre, and it would have a radial edge - unless the "edge" kept expanding as you approach it, which again loops back into infinity. Which again stipulates that what is beyond this infinitely expanding sphere. And we are purportedly within this ever-expanding sphere, which implies we have a central point SOMEWHERE. And again, what beyond the limit of expansion, even if we consider this multi-universe within universe idea (which does make sense to me, but again creates more infinity issues). Lex parsimoniae!

I perceive the infinity of space/time a little differently to Hawkin's over-simplified ever-expanding bi-directional cones from a current space/time locus. I guess I disagree with his expansion exponent more than anything.
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Old 18-09-2013, 11:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrykgerdes View Post
That is why it is suspect. The bounded human mind cannot understand infinity. Barry
Well its clear you can't. infinity is a mathematical construct not a physical thing.
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