More LHC Nonsense

[sjastro]

As if being destroyed by Black Holes wasn't enough.

Explosions, scientists arrested for alleged terrorism, mysterious breakdowns — recently Cern’s Large Hadron Collider (LHC) has begun to look like the world’s most ill-fated experiment.
Is it really nothing more than bad luck or is there something weirder at work? Such speculation generally belongs to the lunatic fringe, but serious scientists have begun to suggest that the frequency of Cern’s accidents and problems is far more than a coincidence.
The LHC, they suggest, may be sabotaging itself from the future — twisting time to generate a series of scientific setbacks that will prevent the machine fulfilling its destiny.
At first sight, this theory fits comfortably into the crackpot tradition linking the start-up of the LHC with terrible disasters. The best known is that the £3 billion particle accelerator might trigger a black hole capable of swallowing the Earth when it gets going. Scientists enjoy laughing at this one.
This time, however, their ridicule has been rather muted — because the time travel idea has come from two distinguished physicists who have backed it with rigorous mathematics.
What Holger Bech Nielsen, of the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen, and Masao Ninomiya of the Yukawa Institute for Theoretical Physics in Kyoto, are suggesting is that the Higgs boson, the particle that physicists hope to produce with the collider, might be “abhorrent to nature”.
What does that mean? According to Nielsen, it means that the creation of the boson at some point in the future would then ripple backwards through time to put a stop to whatever it was that had created it in the first place.
This, says Nielsen, could explain why the LHC has been hit by mishaps ranging from an explosion during construction to a second big bang that followed its start-up. Whether the recent arrest of a leading physicist for alleged links with Al-Qaeda also counts is uncertain.
Nielsen’s idea has been likened to that of a man travelling back through time and killing his own grandfather. “Our theory suggests that any machine trying to make the Higgs shall have bad luck,” he said.
“It is based on mathematics, but you could explain it by saying that God rather hates Higgs particles and attempts to avoid them.”
His warnings come at a sensitive time for Cern, which is about to make its second attempt to fire up the LHC. The idea is to accelerate protons to almost the speed of light around the machine’s 17-mile underground circular racetrack and then smash them together.
In theory the machine will create tiny replicas of the primordial “big bang” fireball thought to have marked the creation of the universe. But if Nielsen and Ninomiya are right, this latest build-up will inevitably get nowhere, as will those that come after — until eventually Cern abandons the idea altogether.
This is, of course, far from being the first science scare linked to the LHC. Over the years it has been the target of protests, wild speculation and court injunctions.
Fiction writers have naturally seized on the subject. In Angels and Demons, Dan Brown sets out a diabolical plot in which the Vatican City is threatened with annihilation from a bomb based on antimatter stolen from Cern.
Blasphemy, a novel from Douglas Preston, the bestselling science-fiction author, draws on similar themes, with a story about a mad physicist who wants to use a particle accelerator to communicate with God. The physicist may be American and the machine located in America, rather than Switzerland, but the links are clear.
Even Five, the TV channel, has got in on the act by screening FlashForward, an American series based on Robert Sawyer’s novel of the same name in which the start-up of the LHC causes the Earth’s population to black out for two minutes when they experience visions of their personal futures 21 years hence. This gives them a chance to change that future.
Scientists normally hate to see their ideas perverted and twisted by the ignorant, but in recent years many physicists have learnt to welcome the way the LHC has become a part of popular culture. Cern even encourages film-makers to use the machine as a backdrop for their productions, often without charging them.
Nielsen presents them with a dilemma. Should they treat his suggestions as fact or fiction? Most would like to dismiss him, but his status means they have to offer some kind of science-based rebuttal.
James Gillies, a trained physicist who heads Cern’s communications department, said Nielsen’s idea was an interesting theory “but we know it doesn’t happen in reality”.
He explained that if Nielsen’s predictions were correct then whatever was stopping the LHC would also be stopping high-energy rays hitting the atmosphere. Since scientists can directly detect many such rays, “Nielsen must be wrong”, said Gillies.
He and others also believe that although such ideas have an element of fun, they risk distracting attention from the far more amazing ideas that the LHC will tackle once it gets going.
The Higgs boson, for example, is thought to give all other matter its mass, without which gravity could not work. If the LHC found the Higgs, it would open the door to solving all kinds of other mysteries about the origins and nature of matter. Another line of research aims to detect dark matter, which is thought to comprise about a quarter of the universe’s mass, but made out of a kind of particle that has so far proven impossible to detect.
However, perhaps the weirdest of all Cern’s aspirations for the LHC is to investigate extra dimensions of space. This idea, known as string theory, suggests there are many more dimensions to space than the four we can perceive.
At present these other dimensions are hidden, but smashing protons together in the LHC could produce gravitational anomalies, effectively tiny black holes, that would reveal their existence.
Some physicists suggest that when billions of pounds have been spent on the kit to probe such ideas, there is little need to invent new ones about time travel and self-sabotage.
History shows, however, it is unwise to dismiss too quickly ideas that are initially seen as science fiction. Peter Smith, a science historian and author of Doomsday Men, which looks at the links between science and popular culture, points out that what started as science fiction has often become the inspiration for big discoveries.
“Even the original idea of the ‘atomic bomb’ actually came not from scientists but from H G Wells in his 1914 novel The World Set Free,” he said.
“A scientist named Leo Szilard read it in 1932 and it gave him the inspiration to work out how to start the nuclear chain reaction needed to build a bomb. So the atom bomb has some of its origins in literature, as well as research.”
Some of Cern’s leading researchers also take Nielsen at least a little seriously. Brian Cox, professor of particle physics at Manchester University, said: “His ideas are theoretically valid. What he is doing is playing around at the edge of our knowledge, which is a good thing.
“He is pointing out that we don’t yet have a quantum theory of gravity, so we haven’t yet proved rigorously that sending information into the past isn’t possible.
“However, if time travellers do break into the LHC control room and pull the plug out of the wall, then I’ll refer you to my article supporting Nielsen’s theory that I wrote in 2025.”
This weekend, as the interest in his theories continued to grow, Nielsen was sounding more cautious. “We are seriously proposing the idea, but it is an ambitious theory, that’s all,” he said. “We already know it is not very likely to be true. If the LHC actually succeeds in discovering the Higgs boson, I guess we will have to think again.”

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

Well, I've made my feelings clear on this particular device elsewhere - I do not believe that we should be tinkering with this sort of device. Period. I know the scientists are going "nothing will go wrong", but what happens if something *does* go wrong? I'd rather not take the chance to be honest. Are those scientists going to offer their lives as punishment for committing crimes against humanity if something does go wrong (providing there is time enough for a trial of course)? I'd sure as hell want to see all of them strung up if it's going to result in the end of the planet and all species living on it.

Sorry for my strong words, but I firmly believe that there are some things that man wasn't meant to tinker with (genetics is another one of them).

Dave

[Zaps]

Yes, science is Evil. Especially when you don't understand it.

Actually, that should say "ONLY when you don't understand it".

[marki]

Ha ha. Now the god particle has an awareness of time and has even developed it's own personallity. Next it will be seen buying calvin klien jocks from Kmart. Still it is physics after all .

Mark

[dpastern (Dave Pastern)]

I didn't say science is evil. I said that some things are best left alone. What happens if something does go wrong? All those "smart" scientists will be wrong. The few that showed caution, will be proved right. By then, it'll probably be too late for it to matter. Sometimes, throwing caution to the wind is not the *right* way of doing things. Notice that the scientists that are pro for it, aren't saying it'll definitely not have any of these raised issues. They are saying that it's unlikely. Hedged bets if you ask me. If they can't be 100% sure that nothing untoward will happen to the planet, then we shouldn't be doing it. Plain and simple.

I know many people who don't want this experiment to go ahead. What happened to our vote? Or is it just tough luck, the science lads want to do it, so tough ****?

Dave

[Zaps]

The difference between the scientists and their critics is that the scientists know what they're doing.

[Baron von Richthofen (Vaclav)]

I personal think the experiment will cause a rip in the space time continuum because it will create exotic particles which can not exist in our universe

[Zaps]

Originally Posted by Baron von Richthofen

I personal think the experiment will cause a rip in the space time continuum because it will create exotic particles which can not exist in our universe

But of course.

[sjastro]

The Earth has been subjected to proton bombardment for at least 4 billion years using energies that make the LHC look insignificant.

The protons are in the form of cosmic rays.

So much for the doomsayers.

Steven

[Baron von Richthofen (Vaclav)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

The difference between the scientists and their critics is that the scientists know what they're doing.

That's not the impression I got when I was working with them it was the opposite

[Zaps]

Originally Posted by Baron von Richthofen

That's not the impression I got when I was working with them it was the opposite

Just because you had no idea what they were talking about doesn't mean that they didn't.

[Jeff]

Excellent plot for a time-spliced sci-fi movie.

[Esseth (Alan)]

"Shall I refuse my dinner because I do not fully understand the process of digestion?" Oliver Heaviside (1850-1925) English physicist.

What people forget is, while the LHC is newest and biggest hadron collider built so far... it is far from the first they have been around since the 70's.
As the saying goes, nothing in life in certain.

As for your vote, well i don't ever recall the planet ever voting on a single issue, i guess the UN could have a vote of some sort? Or maybe it's an issue that the people that actually understand the full physics that are in play are the ones that should make the decision.

I my self would love to die in such a way, and I mean this in the least emo way possible, as the earth being sucked into a black hole or a gamma ray burst. We all die, but it really would make the last few moments something special


Who knows maybe they will crank it up to full power on December 21, 2012?

[Nesti (Mark)]

Originally Posted by sjastro

As if being destroyed by Black Holes wasn't enough.


The LHC, they suggest, may be sabotaging itself from the future — twisting time to generate a series of scientific setbacks that will prevent the machine fulfilling its destiny.

This time, however, their ridicule has been rather muted — because the time travel idea has come from two distinguished physicists who have backed it with rigorous mathematics.

What does that mean? According to Nielsen, it means that the creation of the boson at some point in the future would then ripple backwards through time to put a stop to whatever it was that had created it in the first place.

OMG!!!

Steven & Carl

Please turn to page 120 and read the section on "Floating Point Future" (FPF).

And then, page 149 on "Floating Point Future Processing" (FPFP).

Finally, read chapter called 'History in the Making' on page 150...read until end of section on Aharanov's " Time-Symmetry in Quantum Mechanics". I describe the process in detail.

This is insane...this is what I have written would happen. That the hidden variable (value derived from freedom of choice interference) would override deterministic properties, with the FPFP of particles, in order to create and preserve the " formation of a stable reality".

You've got to be joking?!

Steven, tell me that you are winding me up?????

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/13/sc.../13lhc.html?bl

[Jazza11 (Jeremy)]

Originally Posted by Baron von Richthofen

I personal think the experiment will cause a rip in the space time continuum because it will create exotic particles which can not exist in our universe

How can u create something that cannot exist and also when people say it would create a black hole and it would grow and kill us all, sure a black hole could but from my understanding it cannot grow and it would collapse on itself before it could do anything i believe that this experiment MUST GO ON if stephen hawking says a black hole wont kill us all i would listen to him than some hik who has been living on a farm 100km away from anyone for his whole life

[Baron von Richthofen (Vaclav)]

Originally Posted by Zaps

Just because you had no idea what they were talking about doesn't mean that they didn't.

Actually they stole my idea and research and when they could not complete it they asked me to finish it, I said no, so there it stopped, I could have Easley finished it, so much for scientist
I have been contacted more then once to bail them out

[DavidU (Dave)]

Originally Posted by Baron von Richthofen

Actually they stole my idea and research and when they could not complete it they asked me to finish it, I said no, so there it stopped, I could have Easley finished it, so much for scientist
I have been contacted more then once to bail them out

You worked as an engineer on the LHC????

[GrahamL]

The Earth has been subjected to proton bombardment for at least 4 billion years using energies that make the LHC look insignificant.

Now now ..Steve your not being fair to the thread poster by
bombarding the discourse with factual stuff

[Baron von Richthofen (Vaclav)]

Originally Posted by DavidU

You worked as an engineer on the LHC????

No another bunch of scientist, just as mad, hell bent on destroying the earth, lucky funding was cut

[JethroB76 (Jeff)]

This is going well