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Old 07-01-2009, 01:03 PM
willpower (Will)
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Skywatcher ED APO good choice for beginner?

So I've been researching different scopes now for about 3 weeks. I have come to some conclusions based on what i've read and I hope somebody out there can clear up a few things for me.

Firstly, i have repeatedly read online that an ED APO Refractor offers a more 'crisp' and abberation free view of the heavens per inch of aperture than other scope designs. I have also read that larger apertures (8" +) are needed for decent views of DSO's.Then we come to my actual question; with around $2'500 to spend on my first astronomy set up (months of saving haha) I would like to purchase a scope which gives me the ability to clearly see DSO's and is yet portable enough to cart around in my car.

so... Does a 4" ED APO allow the astronomer bright views of DSO's or is it simply a tool best left to astrophotographers who use CCD camera's to expose the 'hidden image' of the nebula or galaxy which the human eye cannot pick up through the scope? Are the colours and definition of nebula and galaxies evident through a 4" ED APO or is a larger aperture required for light gathering?

I thank anyone who replies to this seemingly long post, riddled with questions.

Cheers, Will.
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Old 07-01-2009, 01:51 PM
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rmcpb (Rob)
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Welcome to IIS Will.

Now for deep sky, and almost everything else, aperture rules!! Your budget is more than ample to get a 12" Lightbridge that would easily fit into a car and leave you a fair bit over for those extra little things we all need/want.

Cheers
Rob.
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Old 07-01-2009, 03:15 PM
stevejack (Steve)
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I agree with Rob, with your budget if you are interested in purely visual astronomy (at least for the time being) then go with a larger dob.

If I had that kind of money I would consider saving up a few hundred more and getting a 16" GSO from Andrews Communications ($2699) which comes with some basic eyepieces and other gear to get you started.
However - you will need to learn collimation with dobs and while not difficult, can be overwhelming when starting out.

I have a 10" dob at the moment, and am seriously considering upgrading to a 16" after only a year. If you're after DSOs (where my interest lies also) then you'll want the largest scope you can possibly transport/handle.

The smaller scopes (which I also considered) are great for photographing DSOs but will not be anywhere near as useful for visual astronomy.

You could get a 10" or 12" truss tube (Skywatcher) for around $900 and $1500 respectively (though I don't know if these come with eyepieces etc like the GSO's do?).

If you got a 10" GSO scope you could add Argo Navis for ~$1200 also - this will really help you out with finding those DSOs.

With my 10" scope I have seen many galaxies (though not like you see in photos!) and other DSOs which have really got me excited about astronomy.

Good luck deciding, I'm sure others will have ideas about refractor scopes which may sway you towards those in the end, I can only make suggestions based on my own research this time last year and what I decided

Cheers!
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Old 07-01-2009, 04:56 PM
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JethroB76 (Jeff)
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Unless you're planning on astrophotography in the near future I would go with a 12" trusser and get an Argo Navis
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Old 07-01-2009, 06:33 PM
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batema (Mark)
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Hi Will,

Oue school has just bought a 12 " DOB and the views are nothing short of outstanding even with the eyepieces tthat come with it. You will need to learn to collimate as said previously and the scope only cost $1000. However it is a big sucker and to transport it I have to lay the back seats of our forrester down. But for views its outstanding. I have also heard that the 10" DOB gives great views and is much more manageable. I think I have read they can fit across the back seat of cars. I also have an ED 80 and it is crisp and views are great but definately larger app for DSO. My mate and I found about 15 galaxies in 1 hour with the 12" so I assume the 10would be almost as good.
Enjoy your purchase when it comes. You'll love it.

Mark
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Old 09-01-2009, 03:53 AM
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Moon (James)
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As a beginner, I have have really enjoyed my Celestron 8SE. At 1,400 USD (2,000 AUD) it's in your price range if you can work out a way to get one shipped over from the US, or perhaps find a second hand one locally. It's easy to move around and set up and the views are great. The GOTO is invaluable when you are starting out. It can also be hooked up to a planaterium program if you wish. If you have to buy it locally it will cost about $3500AUD which is over your budget and is way over priced IMHO.

If you can't find a one at a reasonable price then I think the DOB suggestions above make more sense.

I also like the look of the Bintel N200 (8 inch newt on EQ6 Pro) for $2,695 AUD. It's a little bit future proof in case you want to get into astrophotography. Although the EQ6 is heavy, it's very stable and should fit in you car.

Just my 2 cents worth. What ever you end up getting, I sure you will have a ball.

James
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Old 09-01-2009, 09:55 AM
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bmitchell82 (Brendan)
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Well my 2 bobs worth.

I own the 10 sw and like previously said, its a great set up, as for portability it fits nicely in the back seat of a lancer and room for my 5 year old boy to park his carcass comfortably and the miss's.

The killer with transporting dobs isn't the tube itself as most cars have 1.5m give or take across the back seat. The dob mount on the other hand is a absolute !@#! with the base that is 50cm in diameter and 50-60cm high for the 10", can make it tricky, and for the 12" this is definately bigger, Truss tube or no truss tube.

Recently i brought the eq6 pro, and to be honest it isn't that heavy well no heavier than the 10" dob.

Weights
Eq6 - all up about 15-18kg (in components the head is 11kg ish and the legs 7kg ish)
Dob - Tube 14.3kg mount 11kg
associated stuff 2-3kgs.

I belive that the biggest time consumer out of all of this is setting up the eq mount, though within saying this, it gives the most benifit.

One thing to consider is your location and where you will be using this instrument the most Golden advice is the best scope for you is the scope you will use the most.

Sure a 16" dob WILL BE AWSOME, but its a 2 man job, you cant very well do it yourself unless you have aid's and this adds to the associated stuff list and weights and if you have to trek to get to your viewing spot and do it once a month or less then its going to be heartbreaking all be it rather rewarding event.

As to find things in the metro area where light pollution is bad, you will not get enough stars to star hop even with a big dob (you are still looking though a straw! This is where goto will make your viewing experience expand to no end plus when you get like me and you start having friends over you can set the mount up and it will track and guide (with heaps of room to move and upgrade might i add) so people can just look at it dead center.!

Little ED refractors are good in their own right though for the most of it don't have enough light grab to show DSO detail (don't expect colour our eyes arn't sensitive enough) and only slight colouration of some things and normally in the bluey-Green hue's and generally in 8"+ scopes. Only on clear clear nights where seeing and transparency is up around the 8/9 out of 10 will things like eta carina start turning red/yellow (i have viewed this myself) But its all upto the individuals eyes. if you wear glasses you might have a hard time doing so.

So things to answer for yourself.

-How often do i expect to be going to dark skies
-If i live in the metro, how many stars are visible? light pollution Good/Bad?
-Where am i going with this hobby? think about that one hard, saves you $$$
-Can i eat noodles for another few weeks to get that scope that will be right.
-F# Kind of important high f#(8-12) better planetary scope(better resolution at high end magnification), Low f#(4-6) better dso scope (Lets far more light hit your eye hence faint fuzzies become faint clear fuzzies )

Thats my opinion and logic and it has worked for me. feel free to ask any more questions of my setup and what i can/cant do.
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Old 09-01-2009, 08:50 PM
willpower (Will)
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Holy %&*$, what an awesome forum!!! Cheers to everyone who has taken the time to answer my question. I am so glad i joined IIS now. I am definately passing on the ED APO from all your advice. The DOB sounds like the way to go and it looks to be cheaper which is always nice. I have started reading up on collimation techniques and focusing to prepare for the big day. Thanks again for your help, and i hope in 12 months i'll be able to talk shop with you guys and gals outside the beginners forum lol, or possibly help a noob like myself with a similar problem.


One more thing that im confused about though. What kind of GOTO options can i have with a SW DOB? Ive head of the ARGO NAVIS? Maybe someone could gimme a heads up on how effective these are, set up/ ease of use etc? Thanks again.

Cheers Will.

Last edited by willpower; 09-01-2009 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 10-01-2009, 03:35 PM
andrew2008
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Don't really know a lot about the Argo Navis but lots of people here swear by them. Looking at $1000-1200 i believe.

Other option is the EQ6 which can be had for around $1800. This is the way i went as it will give you more options down the track especially with imaging and Goto is really makes things easy once set up. Definitely enjoy thrill of looking for DSO's but i'd rather spend more time at the eyepiece than finding them and then having to move the mount every few minutes to centre images.
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:37 PM
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bmitchell82 (Brendan)
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these are the steps that i have taken so far now im just counting down the months till i can get myself the 3 other things that allow me to image Im glad that we can all help you to make the decision easier
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Old 10-01-2009, 11:59 PM
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jjjnettie (Jeanette)
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Hi Will, welcome to IIS.
You got lots of good advise!
We're always more than happy to help you spend your money.
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Old 11-01-2009, 12:12 AM
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Miaplacidus (Brian)
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Hi Will, and welcome.
If there is an astronomy club somewhere in Port Macquarie, then maybe you should mosey along to that and see what gear others have. Failing that, perhaps an IIS member near you might have a scope you can test drive.
As for my vote, like always, I'd go for the dob option. (Mirrors have no chromatic aberration, so from that point of view as good as an apo.) Aperture rules, it's true. But consider the size carefully, especially if you are moving it around, because they get real heavy real quick once you get over 8-10 inches.
Cheers,
Brian.

PS Have you got some half decent binoculars?
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:08 AM
TheDecepticon
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Howdy. Go for the 10" dob and Argo Navis. It's gonna be the best "bang for buck" and will still be reasonably portable. The Skywatcher dobs have a good rap with most people. An MPCC(coma corrector) is a good idea also which will compliment the optics of the scope.
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:18 AM
TheDecepticon
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Check this out. Cant go wrong! Add Argo and you still have change!!
http://www.iceinspace.com.au/forum/s...ad.php?t=39318
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Old 11-01-2009, 04:36 AM
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bmitchell82 (Brendan)
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Ide still have to say a argo is the shiznit if visual is the only thing you will ever do with it. If you have even the slightest of inclings you might ever go the Photography way... go with a GEM (german equatorial mount) because to do the whole tracking thing with a dob you need the argo and something else called servo cat. generally this is reserved for the big beasties aka 16+ because to run a GEM for that would be some mega dollars. so they run it with the servo cats (give it the movement) and argo navis (which give it the goto accuracy)

I have to say that for 2.3k which is about how much i paid for my setup i couldn't be happier. because i have a solid base for astro photography plus i have the aperature to drop the scope off the mount onto the dob base and go for it . Ive had many friends out to look at the heavens now, and within the next week or so i will be posting something on the notice board for peoople who would like to come out and have a look i will dedicate my time and equipment so they can have a look.

I find it great, teaches me and teaches my friends. HAZZAAARRR

well i better get to bed took some afocal photos of the moon and some of saturn, they turned out okay moon was best though really blinding need a nutral filter.
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Old 11-01-2009, 05:44 AM
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wavelandscott (Scott)
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Generally I agree with the advice given...if you are interested in visual then aperature is king!

However, it sounds like you have not had much telescopic experience and so my first bit of advice is before you venure into the deep end of the pool (and anything over 8 inches is getting to the deep end) I'd strongly encourage you to get out and see some scopes prior to making a purchase.

While glorious, the size of scopes (big reflectors) that you are considering can be big and heavy (bulky)...make sure you know what it is that you are buying before you spend your cash. Sorry if this seems self evident but when I started out I was a bit surprised by how "big and bulky" my 8 inch dob was when I first got it (purely a function of the tube).

I always encourage begginers to get out and see some scopes and will repeat that same advice to you now...

The best scope for you is the one that you will use...

Clear Skies,
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Old 11-01-2009, 01:30 PM
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saturn c (Leo)
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Any First Telescope You Buy Will Be Great . Im Pretty Sure On A Good Veiwing Night, You'll Be Stoked! Good Luck!
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