Astronomy in Schools

xelasnave · #1 07-02-2007, 11:11 PM

I was going to post to seek peoples views on the proposition "should dogs on leads wear pants in public" but I will leave that one until I see what is on the net

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But I was drawn away from that and seek views as to how astronomy could be introduced into schools. It is not an idea I support simply because I enjoy astronomy or my world revolves around astronomy but the advantages for kids I think should be looked at. Apart from being a good hobby I think it would encourage kids in maths for example, there is the sideline of photography.Maybe a double star program or involvemnet in Sun spot recording. With the availablity of relatively cheap equipment I can not see why we could not have it in schools as part of the science course. I guess it is being done out there someplace but given there are a few of us about perhaps we could cause such to happen. I know someone is doing schools programs but I dont know what level this has reached.
alex

xelasnave · #2 07-02-2007, 11:13 PM

What can we do to improve our sciences and stem the decline we are told is happening..
alex

Ric · #3 07-02-2007, 11:32 PM

Hi Alex, I think it is a great idea to have astronomy programs in schools and I know that some schools already have such programs.The astronomical society in the ACT is quite actively involved in going to schools with a number of scopes and introducing the students to the night sky

I remember back in 77, my school introduced an astronomy program which was run by my geology teacher. There was a total of 5 students and I had to lend my teacher my astronomy books so he had something to teach us.
I would have loved to be a professional astronomer myself but alas my maths was never good enough.
But on the other side of the coin I'm having a great time being an amateur and theres no pressure.

Cheers

Ric · #4 07-02-2007, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelasnave

What can we do to improve our sciences and stem the decline we are told is happening..
alex

More funding to the government schools wouldn't go astray for starters and attack the stigma that science is nerdy.

Cheers

DobDobDob (Ron) · #5 07-02-2007, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelasnave

What can we do to improve our sciences and stem the decline we are told is happening..
alex

Well as romantic as this is going to sound, it could have some positive ramifications. The proposal is simple, people are more likely to ban together, across our planet, in an effort to support the protection of anything and anywhere that is not home (good old Earth).

Thus is goes that if we are at war with each other as we seemed to have been for most of our history, then the way forward for future generations is via the carrot of cosmological new beginnings.

Most young people think the planet and most people on it are stuffed, everyday they see some hypocritical act or deed, usually go unpunished. It's hard to convince them that everything is rosy, when it isn't. So if they were focused on astronomy, the pursuit of new worlds, the search for both intelligent and fundamental life, and so forth, then perhaps they would have hope and strive to make a difference in their life, knowing that the sum total of everyone's efforts is what will eventually answer our most basic questions about who we are and our place in the universe.

I guess what I am promulgating here is something for humanity to pin it's hopes on, and of course it starts in the schools, and yes I agree that the flow on to maths, geography, history, photography as well as the skills of research and observation, and of course the social benefit of mixing with like minded individuals in a common pursuit, is a worthwhile goal.

gaa_ian (Ian) · #6 08-02-2007, 12:37 AM

I am teaching astronomy in Remote Aboriginal Schools in Arnhem Land as well as doing outreach work through our local club to various schools in the region.
It is very rewarding & is well received by the kids.
When you see just 1 or 2 kids light up and ask, why?, what if? I really feel I am doing something worthwhile.
Astronomy is the tool & a great pleasure. But getting kids to think for them selves, ask the big questions about life & perhaps even pursue a career in Science one day is the big reward

xelasnave · #7 08-02-2007, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gaa_ian

I am teaching astronomy in Remote Aboriginal Schools in Arnhem Land as well as doing outreach work through our local club to various schools in the region.
It is very rewarding & is well received by the kids.
When you see just 1 or 2 kids light up and ask, why?, what if? I really feel I am doing something worthwhile.
Astronomy is the tool & a great pleasure. But getting kids to think for them selves, ask the big questions about life & perhaps even pursue a career in Science one day is the big reward

You are a real life hero I understand where you are coming from I wish to do similar for those kids around Tabulam I think such an interest for them can give them hope... I would like to see astronomy used to support their beliefs rather than destroy them, I hate the way folk overlook their views of the Universe.. no better or worse than many views but such an indecent lack of respect and understanding is unfortunate.
Good luck with your work I am proud to know you.
alex

astronut (John) · #8 08-02-2007, 07:45 AM

Alex,
What a can of worms you've opened for me

I'm involved in taking Astronomy to our local schools with other members of our club.
As always the kids love looking through scopes, listening to information and they come up with the most challenging questions.
Our approach is to have Sky Planetarium show up during the school day and show the kids the night sky on the dome, that evening our members arrive to show the kids the real thing.
Without exception, (parents included) the results are OOH'S & AHHHH's a very satisfying sound for a astronomer!!!
The can of worms is the complete lack of support by governments.
Our club has just tried to gain access to funding for a large dob, it's main use would have been for the education of our local primary & high schools and for the local university.
As usual the Federal Government, through our local member (Pat Farmer) explained that the coffers were overflowing with money for community projects.
After our club president had spent an enormous amount of time and effort on a very good proposal we were turned down.
The money is there just for show. I know of other astro clubs that have been turned down as well.
BUT, if we were a sporting club I would currently be drowning in money!!!!!
We (astronomers) have to change the mindset of the holders of the purse strings and the creators of the school curriculum, for the betterment of our children.
LONG LIVE SCIENCE!!!!!

xelasnave · #9 08-02-2007, 08:48 AM

Thats fantastic.
Now is the time to ask. Mr Rudd made a statement to address the issue of the decline in science by suggesting hex fees be removed.. it was interesting the students questioned on the news said such would not change their views... selective quetioning is terriffic is it not..
Ask the local business for funding.. invite targets to a meet them let them come up with the idea that they could sponsor a scope..it always better when someone comes up with your idea and easy to manipulate such a situation. Invite the member to a star party telling them you were going to ask their coming opponent because they are interested in astronomy but you thought you shouls ask them first.
But if you do no more you are already doing a fine job and deserve a big pat on the back..well done.
alex

OneOfOne (Trevor) · #10 08-02-2007, 09:10 AM

Like some of the other posters, I am involved with the ASV in Melbourne with the Astronomy for the People program. We also take scopes to local schools or other group events and show people the heavens. I must admit I get a bit of a buzz when someone sees Alpha Centauri for the firs time and see two stars! It usually blows their mind!

I think if we can at least make some of the kids go "wow" we will have achieved something. As for getting the government to do something, as usual they only push there own barrows! We need to find someone from IIS who wants to run for office!

xelasnave · #11 08-02-2007, 10:02 AM

Mike for PM representing the Star Party

.
I agree with the Omega Centuri finding but I have found the beauty of doubles generaly lost on folk.. sortta.. just two stars whats the big deal.. you must have a better way of putting it over I guess.
But if we believe they wont do anything our result is already predetermined They will not.. but if we think they will they will. I live by positive thinking it delivers whatever I desire with little more effort than believing it will come true... so lets think them into submission... ohmmm or is it hohmmm.
Thinking longer about the opportunity ready it is clear to me there are wonderful people doing a great job lets simply build on that.. one day Mike will be on a radio program or TV (or maybe another one of us) we just need to keep it in front of mind that we can achieve a result. I am very positive we can.. developing a package is the only problem.. so we know what we do want for something to move forward.
I see it I believe it is happening.
alex

Dujon · #12 08-02-2007, 10:19 AM

Who would be a teacher these days, Alex? Not me, that's for sure.

If any reader is a teacher then I tips me lid to you.

I might mention at this point that I have no involvement with teachers other than having a couple of neighbours who are such and with whom I exchange only the usual neighbourly pleasantries. Oh yes, one of my sisters-in-law is a music teacher at the Con., but I haven't seen her (never mind spoken to her) for years and years - and a couple of friends used to be TAFE teachers who took on the job after decades in their respective trades. Right, that gets any conflict of interest out of the way.

Should my general reading and understanding of such be correct then teachers today are expected to do far more than they did in my time as a student. Unless I am mistaken, and I doubt it, extra-curricula activities were done on a voluntary basis (usually initiated by the teacher in question) and guided by someone with an interest in the subject.

Now a teacher is required to participate in such. They are also - often - allocated to teach students in subjects which are out of the area of their (the teacher's) expertise. The latter does not apply in most cases to primary school teachers as they, usually, teach the same pupils day in and day out. This changes when the children arrive at 'High School'.

So, to cut to the chase: How many teachers of pupils/students have either the interest or the time to become involved in specialised astronomy education? The same would apply no doubt to other subjects such as Biology, Medicine, Environment, Cartography, Electronics, Archaeology or a whole host of other branches of science. Where does it stop?

There are also the legal aspects, and you of all people would have a working knowledge of that area. Insurance, parental permission, background checks regarding dealing with children, use of premises, first-aid facilities; I'm sure there's more.

Looking back over that lot I'm surprised that anything gets done in this 'nanny state' environment in which we all now live! Yes, OK, I accept that I'm probably overstating things a bit.

I suppose, if you are lucky, you will be able to liase with a particular school. What if you are not? Individuals, such as myself, will have little or no chance of setting up any sort of scheme. The various clubs and societies would have a much enhanced ability to do something constructive. Before that can happen, though, those organisations will need to dispel the idea that they are a haven for 'geeks', 'nerds' or other terribly serious people. We know that they are not, but do other people?

Surely there is a place for learners within clubs just as there is for people who do not take the hobby to extremes. If astronomy as a hobby, pastime or part time serious study is to be encouraged in the general community (including children) then the clubs/societies must become the focal point. If you can attract an adult then there is no doubt that the battle for their younger ones is half done.

astronut (John) · #13 08-02-2007, 10:52 AM

I agree John.

LX200 · #14 08-02-2007, 11:06 AM

G'day
OneOfOne
PentaXW-phile

The problem with running for office you need party support & for that you'd need to tow the line
aka P.Garrett Porshce driving greenie

There's no room for personal agenda

ving (David) · #15 08-02-2007, 01:30 PM

a problem i see is in the senior years of highschool where they get to choose thier own topics... science often takes a back seat to subject that are considered more fun or indeed cooler. lets face it, science IS nerdy and theres no changing that. its the imortance of said subjects we need to get across to the HSC students.

xelasnave · #16 08-02-2007, 01:54 PM

Dujon John, This what we need someone who can focus more on the specifics so a workable program can be drafted. I dont know if they still have Army cadets in schools I expect that insurance has closed that down but that would have faced the same problems before it came in, astronomy is not as important as army training but it probably is more beneficial than some subjects presently taking time and resources. . Perhaps we could have it instead of sport for some kids and certainly as an overall problem giving astronomy the nerdy image is something I think goes to the heart of the problem, and that I suspect is a preconception rather than a reality. Why not promote Mr Edwin Hubble as a role model for example, this man was a lawyer and a contender for the heavy weight boxing title of the world, gee if that could not turn impressions around then get a new add man.
When I was a kid and sputnik went over every kid became interested in science, it was on a roll. I think most kids would go for it presented the right way ... As to cries of where is the money coming from maybe from the GST on astronomy gear, maybe the GST on petrol, tabacco booze or charge over dose cases a fee when admitted to hospital.
If you can see a basic benefit for kids its worth following up. We have some bright people here and the opportunity of investigating the possibilities with out expending too much energy other than offering an input such as we have been doing. But lets think of some more reasons why it would be a good thing and how it could help our country, after all China turns out 1,000,000 engineers a year I dont know how many scientists but we dont want to fall behind the world in science or engineering.
I would like to think there is enough happening in astronomy that if we simply talk it thru and offer our ideas those ideas will be picked up by folk who can take it futher. Thanks for your input everyone.
As to Mr Garret he is sortta the current role model that our kids have to look to maybe we can even improve on that.
alex

Ric · #17 08-02-2007, 02:04 PM

A few more Dr Karl type scientists and science teachers that kids can identify with is probably whats needed.
If they learn from an early age that science is cool then I think there is a better chance that they will stay with in later school years.
I agree with Alex, Peter Garret is a role model that kids look up to but his party have to undo the reins and allow him to speak his mind and not toe the official party line. He needs to be Peter Garret again and maybe wear his "Sorry" t-shirt into question time.

Cheers

xelasnave · #18 08-02-2007, 02:17 PM

As much as I respect Mr Garret dont let the point be lost that he is in effect a rock star it would be nice if we had someone other than rocks stars and sports people provided as role models. Kids are impressionable and some of the impressions they must form from following some of their current heros can not be very good. I am glad my Son did not use sports people as his roll model or a rock star.. and dont get me wrong he plays the guitar with me and was into martial arts, still surfs etc but has grown up past this stage in life, and moved into the world of grown ups.. I see a problem I guess others may not see as "real".
alex

GTB_an_Owl (Geoff) · #19 08-02-2007, 02:42 PM

watching the ABC yesterday (meet the press is it ?) , anyway the minister for education was spruiking to the reporters that she wanted to see more emphasis placed on maths and science in years 11/12 so that the interest was carried over into university

like Alex, i wonder sometimes about these sudden changes in policies.
are we going back to "tech colleges" for the trades and majority and "university" for the rich and the geeks ? who knows what they are up to!

not against the "tech colleges " by the way - think it is a good idea and never should have been wound down in the first place.

ballaratdragons (Ken) · #20 08-02-2007, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xelasnave

As much as I respect Mr Garret dont let the point be lost that he is in effect a rock star it would be nice if we had someone other than rocks stars and sports people provided as role models. Kids are impressionable and some of the impressions they must form from following some of their current heros can not be very good. I am glad my Son did not use sports people as his roll model or a rock star.. and dont get me wrong he plays the guitar with me and was into martial arts, still surfs etc but has grown up past this stage in life, and moved into the world of grown ups.. I see a problem I guess others may not see as "real".
alex

Alex,
Peter Garret was always a 'Political Activist' that used music as his platform to make youth 'think' about environmental, political, war and justice issues. He was a 'Youth Style' politician more than a rock star. He is a good friend of a friend of mine (an ex-employee of mine in youth work), and he would just drop in to visit the kids at our centre (when he was within 100k) and he had the kids spellbound and interested in politics. And this was before he even entered politics.

We allowed him to take control of our sessions as he was a 'role model' in getting kids to think! He never encouraged them to support his views, but to examine what policies will effect their future. As Manager of the centre, I never hesitated in letting him chat with them for as long as he wanted to. Within minutes they forgot he was a so called 'rock star' and they accepted him as an old fart with a good point.

As far as Astronomy in schools, I am not sure that it would be presented as a stand-alone subject, rather as a section of the normal science program. I personally have the occasional Astronomy Day at our local Primary Schools, but I feel guilty lately as my job has made it 90% impossible for me to do it this year.

I love it, the kids love it, and it should be encouraged, but I personally believe that until we are like the 'Jetsons' it will never be accepted as a main subject. And by then our kids will be behind the 8 ball.

Then there is also the personal side. I often get asked by kids (and Adults) at astronomy day if there are any aliens or any form of intelligent life in outer space, are there UFO's, etc.

Now, do I answer them with what I believe, or do I toe the line with the education department policy and say 'I am not allowed to answer that'. I usually say 'no-one knows 100% for sure yet'

There is actually an Astronomy Curriculum to be adhered to when speaking in schools, but out in the public it is open slather!